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How Can You Politely Say, "Your Character Sucks?"

Nifft

Penguin Herder
I'm not sure the second guy exists.
I've seen people play steal-from-the-party Rogues. Jerks really do exist. The "intentionally crap" character guy is a step above that, at least.

Every character has to be justified. Why does Magey McMage, the Intelligant Mage of Intelligence get a pass, while someone's plucky farmboy-turned-swordmage is offensive?
Let me ask this: why must someone's plucky farmboy be dumb? If he's a farmboy who turns into a kickass Jedi (for example), you'd expect him to have rather good stats for the stuff Jedi need.

Cheers, -- N
 

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Runestar

First Post
And for whatever it is worth, I have never played a single MMO in my life. Yet between being optimized and not optimized, I would still opt for the former. Nor would I say that my perceptions were shaped by the "need to excel" mentality in those games.

My rationale is that as I play more of those games, I become more experienced and familiar with the rules and how they interact. It seems like a natural progression to evolve my character builds in accordance with my mastery of the game mechanics.

It is like playing a spellcaster in 3e. At first, I might play a blaster as that is what the wizard seems built for. But from experiences and discussion on the net, I discover that my damage is not keeping up with the hp scaling of monsters, so I switch over to SoDs. But that did not prove satisfying, as the result is often too binary, and not very efficient vs larger groups of weaker mooks. So after some experimentation and debate on the net, I finally settle on battlefield control, which showcases the true latent capabilities of the wizard.

I had found my true calling.:)

Maybe it is just me, but looking back, I don't think I can ever stomach playing a blaster or SoD wizard again. Maybe ignorance was a bliss.

Was I really so wrong? :eek:
 

outsider

First Post
I'm not sure the second guy exists. I'm not going to criticize or justify that person without context. I do know that in the case of the OP, we were talking about a 14 instead of a 16-20, with the character basically functional if not ideal in some respects, so I am taking that as the benchmark for discussion. Again, nothing you have said dissuades me from the advice I just gave; people design their characters for a variety of reasons. If you cannot accept that, it is likely you who has the attitude problem.

They do exist. I've played with at least 3 of this type of player. They are the kind of player that believes that people who play weak characters are better roleplayers than those who play powerful ones. They are the kind of player that uses the term "rollplaying" as a slur. They are the type of player that thinks powergaming is inherently wrong. They are the reason the Stormwind Fallacy exists.

If you've seen anybody that uses terms like munchkin, rollplaying, etc frequently, you may be looking at one of these people. In a regular, mixed group of players they'll be somewhat functional. They'll butt heads with any powergamers in the group, but the presence of level headed players in the midground between the extreme playstyles will usually keep it from getting too far.

If one of these guys ends up in a powergamer heavy group though, they can become EXTREMELY petty and disruptive, just as bad as when a powergamer plays in a group that's otherwise into "deep roleplaying, never touch the dice" type of play.

As far as being unable to accept that people create characters for different reasons, and thus maybe it's my fault, I can easily accept that people create characters for different reasons. However, if your reason is opposed to the reasons of the rest of the players, you are going to be a problem. If I wind up in a group that doesn't like powergaming, I either leave the group or I create a character that's weaker than I normally would(assuming there's something else compelling enough about he game for me to justify playing in it). It is unreasonable for one person to try to force his preferences on 4 people, even when I'm that one person.
 


pawsplay

Hero
I've seen people play steal-from-the-party Rogues. Jerks really do exist. The "intentionally crap" character guy is a step above that, at least.

If someone makes an intentional crap character, I think they have an agenda. I don't think I've ever met a "method actor" who felt his character demanded a life of futility and inconsequence.

Let me ask this: why must someone's plucky farmboy be dumb? If he's a farmboy who turns into a kickass Jedi (for example), you'd expect him to have rather good stats for the stuff Jedi need.

Cheers, -- N

Why would he be smart? Also, how is 14 dumb? Who said anything about dumb? Why does a plucky farm boy have to have the secret potential to be the Greatest Jedi Ever?
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
If someone makes an intentional crap character, I think they have an agenda. I don't think I've ever met a "method actor" who felt his character demanded a life of futility and inconsequence.
I tend to agree, just like I think the thief who steals from party members has an agenda.

Why would he be smart?
Because his player wants to make him a Swordmage.

Also, how is 14 dumb? Who said anything about dumb?
You did, when you contrasted him against "Magey McMage, the Intelligant Mage of Intelligence".

Why does a plucky farm boy have to have the secret potential to be the Greatest Jedi Ever?
Because he's a PC.

Cheers, -- N
 

pawsplay

Hero
They do exist.

I don't think we've defined what characteristics "they" have. It's entirely possible you've misinterpreted other people's behavior, that you describe behavior in this way that someone else wouldn't, or that you are mistaking what I and others are trying to say.

I've played with at least 3 of this type of player. They are the kind of player that believes that people who play weak characters are better roleplayers than those who play powerful ones. They are the kind of player that uses the term "rollplaying" as a slur. They are the type of player that thinks powergaming is inherently wrong. They are the reason the Stormwind Fallacy exists.

If you've seen anybody that uses terms like munchkin, rollplaying, etc frequently, you may be looking at one of these people. In a regular, mixed group of players they'll be somewhat functional. They'll butt heads with any powergamers in the group, but the presence of level headed players in the midground between the extreme playstyles will usually keep it from getting too far.

If one of these guys ends up in a powergamer heavy group though, they can become EXTREMELY petty and disruptive, just as bad as when a powergamer plays in a group that's otherwise into "deep roleplaying, never touch the dice" type of play.

I'm going to go with the theory you are misinterpreting behavior, because the motivations of the person you are describing sound incomprehensible to me if you are really giving them the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, if I assume you are distorting the account because of your own unconscious bias, I find it easy to believe you are simply experiencing a clash of style, values, and goals, combined with some unproductive group dynamics.

As far as being unable to accept that people create characters for different reasons, and thus maybe it's my fault, I can easily accept that people create characters for different reasons. However, if your reason is opposed to the reasons of the rest of the players, you are going to be a problem.

Right. Whereas, if your reasons are simply different, that shouldn't be a problem. So if a person wishes to make a certain style of character for roleplaying reasons, different motivations than the rest of the group, and other people are opposed to these reasons... I think that means the problem principally resides in the other players. I can't tell someone their character isn't fun to them, but I can tell someon they are being aggressive and that their attitude is interfering with their ability to relate to others.

If I wind up in a group that doesn't like powergaming, I either leave the group or I create a character that's weaker than I normally would(assuming there's something else compelling enough about he game for me to justify playing in it). It is unreasonable for one person to try to force his preferences on 4 people, even when I'm that one person.

It's unreasonable for four people to force their preferences on one. Reason does not submit to a majority vote. According to these rules, an exactly divided group would consist entirely of people who were being "unreasonable." How can that possibly be?

I think you are happy being a powergamer, and that dealing with non-powergamers is uncomfortable to you. When playing with non-powergamers, you do not modify your attitude, you simply dial your attitude down a notch, and when you play with powergamers, you feel justified in inflicting your viewpoint on non-powers in the group. It's pretty clear that you think powergaming is better and non-powergaming is worse. Correct me if I have misunderstood your position in some way.

I can think of no logical reason why a non-powergamer would be destined to butt heads with powergamers.
 

pawsplay

Hero
Because his player wants to make him a Swordmage.

So? Somewhere out there are all the guys who are not the smartest Swordmage in history. Someone gets to be head of the class, someone always has to be last.

You did, when you contrasted him against "Magey McMage, the Intelligant Mage of Intelligence".

No, no I didn't. I just said Magey was intelligent, and I implied he was highly specialized in intelligence. I didn't say farmboy was dumb, and strongly implied he had an Int of 14, which is not dumb, but smart.

Because he's a PC.

How does that follow? Are all PCs destined to be equally the Greatest Jedi Ever? There's no room for characters who become legends because they have pluck/heart/loyalty/some other useful talent?
 

It can be applied to many things aside from powergaming/optimisation as well. Take, for example, a campaign where the DM sets out no alignment guidelines. 4 players decide to play good, and one insists upon playing evil. By the logic some people have presented in this thread, the 4 players should give up their good characters so the 1 player can play evil.

how about in that case we find away to make it work... my go to example (and I have even seen it work) is Tyr from andromina... a NE character on a ship full of G aligned characters (mostly CG with the one or two NGs)... he got the job done, he needed them, they needed him... and at the end of the day "I can always trust Tyr to... well be Tyr" or Jane of Firefly "Why didn't you turn on me jane?" "Money wasn't good enough" "It will be one day though?" "Yea that will be an intresting day" "Yea mighty intresting one"

or heck as long as one isn't a paliden... just keep the alignment secret in game (not out of game that might cause problems depending ont he group)



The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It's unfair to expect a group to conform to you, rather than the other way around.
that is where we compramize so everyone gets to play the character they want without stepping ont to other characters....


If you're in a group of heroes, don't try to play a villian.
but one anti hero with a villian back story can be fun...

If you're in a group of powergamers, don't deliberately set out to make a weak character. If you're in a group of Actors, don't try to turn every situation into a fight.
but again why can't I be weak and you be strong, I start fights well you mend bridges...

I can't believe I have to say this, but I feel like it needs to be said. The thread title was a joke, people. I do not believe this person's character sucks (or sucked, as our game has since fallen apart).
good I am glad... but at this point it has moved well beyond any one example and into the whole... and on the whole it is the attitude I keep runnign into... infact I have herd people say "Your character Sucks" at LFR games to new players...

I don't mean "well, I just created my guy organically to match my concept, and he came out a little weak". That happens, is totally innocent, and the player is usually willing to work with the group a bit to fix things up. I mean "I deliberately created this character to be weak. Now change your characters' concepts and personalities to justify my character's presence in the group". That second guy is being a jerk.

ok what about I made my str 14 fighter the way I want, can't we just say I am the weakest of us... say the newbie???


and again... gee I am less optimized, infact under par/average... so all it takes is 1 of the other 4 players to see me as there younger brother (or like one) and poof... and the only line needed is "You show potential... one day your gonna be a killer boy..."
 

Nifft

Penguin Herder
So? Somewhere out there are all the guys who are not the smartest Swordmage in history. Someone gets to be head of the class, someone always has to be last.
That's blatantly untrue. Nobody is forced to play a character who sucks, because unlike "history" (by which I assume you mean "reality"), in D&D you get to pick your character's stats.

No PC is ever required to be the last guy in class.

If your group forces you to play a loser, I'd suggest you consider finding another group.

No, no I didn't. I just said Magey was intelligent, and I implied he was highly specialized in intelligence. I didn't say farmboy was dumb, and strongly implied he had an Int of 14, which is not dumb, but smart.
14 is not very smart in this edition. Other editions may vary. In 1e, it was quite smart: the smartest gods only went up to 25 after all. In 4e, every Int-based character is expected to end up with 26-30 by level 30 -- smarter than the smartest 1e god.

Also, of course, stats don't necessarily represent education -- skills can do that as well. If you wanted to play a Swordmage / country bumpkin, you could easily model that by dumping Knowledge skills in favor of farmboy-type skills:
- Lose Arcana (change to Endurance).
- Lose access to History, gain access to Nature.

There. Now you're not a know-it-all, but you don't suck at your chosen profession either.

How does that follow? Are all PCs destined to be equally the Greatest Jedi Ever? There's no room for characters who become legends because they have pluck/heart/loyalty/some other useful talent?
All Jedi PCs are destined to be great Jedi PCs... unless you want to deliberately play a loser, or your game never gets past level 4.

Cheers, -- N
 

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