Where is my Freaking Mule?!

[Rechan]

now understand that it comes off a bit adversarial. That's not my intention, and I apologize.

 

[Rechan]

That's probably true Lanefan, but, I think does speak a long way to Rechan's point. Birthright, from what I understood, was a pretty serious modification of the 2e system - kinda like how there are a bajillion d20 mods. It might use the base mechanics but stock 2e and Birthright were not particularly compatible.

So, if you want to play a fantasy game with lots of economics, why stick to D&D? There are a HUGE number of d20 variants out there for this sort of thing. Why complain that D&D doesn't do something (or at least doesn't do it well) when there are all sorts of tools that DO do it well, but, just happen to not be D&D?

Thank you. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Garthanos]

That would be the common Pitfinder Donkeyhorse.



Snackrun Donkeyhorse, IIRC. Its other notable use is in carrying the party's stash of medieval Cheetos and Mountain Dew.



Flamedeath Donkeyhorse, of course.

Good Lord , jus been knocked out of my chair... are these the cheaply conjured critters so we dont need a thief version of a Donkey horse or is that an earlier edition?

 

[pemerton]

As far as looking outside D&D... for better or worse it's the flagship product that most people will be introduced to roleplaying through... which also means it's assumptions, rules, how it's run, etc. will also set the playstyles, expectations, etc. of many new players. So I definitely want it to strive to encompass diversity even if that means creating optional books, rules sets, etc. that cater to different styles. If it fits your style already why are you complaining or even concerned about what I want?

I don't especially want 4e to become "diverse" in the sense of handling mules and the ingame economy, because that is likely to take the ruleset and supplements in a direction away from what I currently like about it, and what brought me back to GMing D&D after a 20 year absence. Hence also my concern in light of the fact that it already caters to my style. I don't especially want that to stop.

From a slightly less selfish perspective, I think changing the game to take it away from its current somewhat gonzo fantasy action orientation, to a more purist-simulationist mule and 10' pole and economics game, is likely to make it a less attractive game for new players. This would, in turn, hurt WoTC and the RPG hobby more generally.

And for those who want to do a night on the town in 4e, use Streetwise, Intimidate, Bluff, Endurance etc as skills in a skill challenge. The PCs of players who fail checks end up broke or passed out or both (depending on what makes narrative sense based on the actions they attempted) but, provided the party succeeds at the challenge then their friends carry them safely back to the inn. If the party as a whole fails the challenge then they all get captured by the villains and wake up hungover in chains, or they all lose all their money and wake up broke and wondering where all the money went, or etc etc etc.

4e can provide stories about mules and 10' poles and scrounging for coin, but it is never going to do it using the mechanical approach (ie accounting, price lists, and blueprints of traps) that earlier editions did. At least, not as long as it remains true to its obvious design intentions.

That is what I take to be the point of Rechan's comments. If you want to play a game that is like 1st ed AD&D, find a different game from 4e. One pretty easy option might be HARP (currently in print from ICE) but using Rolemaster Classic XP gain rules (also currently in print from ICE).

 

[Garthanos]

You do realize everyone's story isn't based upon the LotR... right? In alot of Sword & Sorcery fantasy, money is a very real concern for the protagonists. Even the Sorcerer-emperor Elric had times where he had to scrape and scrounge to afford the drugs and supplies he needed. You assume alot about what constitutes heroic fantasy, and not all of it may be correct.

You knew a different Elric than I.
Elric threw rubies at people who looked at as a years wages (moon glum sometimes collected the appropriate change)... the fellow had no clue . His drugs were probably rarely bought... he scraped the mold etc as nobody else knew how to harvest because he was the best at it... local apothecaries werent good enough at this stuff for him and he was dependent on it. He was obviously scary powerful and half the time those who wanted him for Mercenary style work had to make him interested... it wasnt money that made him interested (opportunity for Revenge worked .. some historical bit ... even old fashioned Wizard stuff).

 

[Imaro]

You knew a different Elric than I.
Elric threw rubies at people who looked at as a years wages (moon glum sometimes collected the appropriate change)... the fellow had no clue . His drugs were probably rarely bought... he scraped the mold etc as nobody else knew how to harvest because he was the best at it... local apothecaries werent good enough at this stuff for him and he was dependent on it. He was obviously scary powerful and half the time those who wanted him for Mercenary style work had to make him interested... it wasnt money that made him interested (opportunity for Revenge worked .. some historical bit ... even old fashioned Wizard stuff).

Yet there were times, like in Quarzhasaat, where Elric's lack of coin... comparitive to the society of course... is how he ends up being manipulated into bargains for the drugs he needs. It's in the story "The Fortress of the Pearl"...

Edit: Of course it wouldn't be an Elric story if in the end he didn't bring destruction and death down upon them all...

 

[Imaro]

I don't especially want 4e to become "diverse" in the sense of handling mules and the ingame economy, because that is likely to take the ruleset and supplements in a direction away from what I currently like about it, and what brought me back to GMing D&D after a 20 year absence. Hence also my concern in light of the fact that it already caters to my style. I don't especially want that to stop.

From a slightly less selfish perspective, I think changing the game to take it away from its current somewhat gonzo fantasy action orientation, to a more purist-simulationist mule and 10' pole and economics game, is likely to make it a less attractive game for new players. This would, in turn, hurt WoTC and the RPG hobby more generally.

And for those who want to do a night on the town in 4e, use Streetwise, Intimidate, Bluff, Endurance etc as skills in a skill challenge. The PCs of players who fail checks end up broke or passed out or both (depending on what makes narrative sense based on the actions they attempted) but, provided the party succeeds at the challenge then their friends carry them safely back to the inn. If the party as a whole fails the challenge then they all get captured by the villains and wake up hungover in chains, or they all lose all their money and wake up broke and wondering where all the money went, or etc etc etc.

4e can provide stories about mules and 10' poles and scrounging for coin, but it is never going to do it using the mechanical approach (ie accounting, price lists, and blueprints of traps) that earlier editions did. At least, not as long as it remains true to its obvious design intentions.

That is what I take to be the point of Rechan's comments. If you want to play a game that is like 1st ed AD&D, find a different game from 4e. One pretty easy option might be HARP (currently in print from ICE) but using Rolemaster Classic XP gain rules (also currently in print from ICE).

I'm certainly not talking about taking the entire game in a different direction... but what would be so wrong with an optional book like 3.5's Unearthed Arcana where alternative rules to support other playstyles are published?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not a doggone thing.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm certainly not talking about taking the entire game in a different direction... but what would be so wrong with an optional book like 3.5's Unearthed Arcana where alternative rules to support other playstyles are published?

Could be 3pp. Goodman Games perhaps.
WOTC have lots of resources for play testing stuff dont mind that most of the stuff they do has a cautious element to it....

That said I have always liked Unearthed Arcana.
A place to put a cool Wound System sign me up!

A place to put a inspired powers as a replacement for dailies.(remove the time factor use a form of recharge based on encounters).

A place to put a house rule where even at-wills have a component (which may or may not be expended)... the ranger looses arrows all the time if you want to track that stuff... bat quano isnt expensive just messy.

 

[Imaro]

Could be 3pp. Goodman Games perhaps.
WOTC have lots of resources for play testing stuff dont mind that most of the stuff they do has a cautious element to it....

That said I have always liked Unearthed Arcana.
A place to put a cool Wound System sign me up!

A place to put a inspired powers as a replacement for dailies.(remove the time factor use a form of recharge based on encounters).

A place to put a house rule where even at-wills have a component (which may or may not be expended)... the ranger looses arrows all the time if you want to track that stuff... bat quano isnt expensive just messy.

Exactly... I don't mean this as a dig at 4e, but we seem to already be at a saturation point where the base rules are being rehashed (Essentials) and more niche/experimental products are starting to come out... 3D dungeon tiles, Hammerfast (locations instead of full fledged adventures), short 32 page adventures, race booklets, and so on... I think we really are getting to the point where something like Unearthed Arcana for 4e could be a good supplement, and give the 4e designers some guidance as far as future supplements. I just don't see myself buying to many more PHB's, power supplements or another Adventurer's Vault... Even now I feel like I have enough combat crunch to last me a lifetime.