Adjudication for Dwarf Tossing

[Lord Zardoz]

The subject of dwarf tossing in D&D 4e came up in a conversation just recently. After putting way too much thought into it, here is what I came up with for the series of required actions.

1) Grab attack - Str vs Reflex. (Standard Action). Typical resolution

2) Lifting the dwarf for a throw: I would use the rules under Move a Grabbed Object (Str vs Fort) which typically allows the attacker to move 1/2 of the current movement score, except I would require the attacker to make an Athletics check to determine the distance thrown.

3) Determining distance of the throw: I would treat this part of the action as a Move action. I presume we can determine the distance of the throw with an Athletics check, using the same rules for jumping. I would halve the distance traveled (which is consistent with the Move a Grabbed Object action). I would expect the DM to apply a penalty to the d20 check to take into account the weight of the dwarf plus his Armour, Sheild, Weapon, and possibly his backpack.

4) Dwarf as a projectile attack: If the character were to attempt to throw the dwarf at a specific target, I would also have to refer to page 42 of the DMG. I would scale the damage with the level of my character, possibly using the Normal Damage Expressions, Medium (1d10+3 = Str for a 1st level attacker) for to apply damage to both the target and the Dwarf. I would treat the thrown dwarf as a Str vs Reflex attack for the target (it is a very large projectile). Dwarf would suffer damage even on a missed or short throw.

Questions:
Should the attack roll for using the Dwarf as a projectile also require a separate action, and if so, should it be a Minor, Move, or Standard action?

Should the damage be treated as a Normal Damage Expression, Medium, or as a Limited Damage Expression, Medium?

In the event that the attacker is tossing a larger or smaller object (Say an Ogre or a small Dog), should the damage be scaled up or down to the target and / or the projectile?

Presuming the use of an action point, should this series of actions be possible in a single round?

What sort of modifier would you apply to the Athletics check DC for the throw regarding distance traveled? How would you change it if the projectile is a small dog or dwarf?

Should the throw DC modifier be scaled with the level of the projectile, or be static with respoect to mass?

What steps would change if the projectile were already deceased?

Other:
Given that this attack would require at least 2 standard actions, and perhaps 1 move action (to account for the Athletics Check on the throw), it is not an especially efficient mode of inflicting damage, unless you happen to be near a very high ledge.

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[Primitive Screwhead]

As scary as it is, I have considered this one quite often as well.. and once posted my 3.x HR titled 'Kobold Tossing'

I hadn't converted my thoughts into 4e paradigm, however it looks alot like what you have listed here. My 4e version would run along the lines of:

step 1: grab, standard action using normal rules

step 2: heft, move action
- Str vs Fort to be able to move the target if throwee is unwilling or is your size or larger

step 3: Throw, standard action
- Athletics check used ala jump rules to determine the distance thrown as a push
- - each size above small causes a -4 penalty.. each size below small grants a +2 bonus **
- - Throwee can Aid Other using acrobatics to gain further distance travelled
- - Dwarven resistances to being pushed may be applied

step 4: damage to both thown creature and the target based on improvised weapon rule and 'falling' damage, basically D4 for small, D6 for medium, D8 for large, etc... and one dice for each portion of 10 feet travelled.
The thrown creature may make a acrobatics check to reduce the damage taken per normal falling rules, and can elect whether that reduction applies to the target as well. If the thown creature takes damage, it ends up prone.

Of course, the fun thing about this is that you could use ranged power along with your throw

This keeps the damage low enough that it won't be the best choice, altho the movement is nice.


** assuming a medium sized thrower....

 

[Lord Zardoz]

The use of a ranged power seems like an interesting idea, but most powers I am aware of require a standard action to use. We are already using a standard action for Strength vs Fort as per the 'Move a grabbed opponent' option.

As a DM, I might allow the use of a power for a willing projectile.

I do not recall seeing the improvised weapon rules. Where are they?

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[Dan'L]

I think I would try and minimize the number of steps a little. I assume a willing dwarf:

1) Grab (willing target) minor or free as part of:
2) Move action: Heft Dwarf -- Str v. Fort
3) Standard Action: Throw Dwarf -- Athletics check using "jump" guidlines for distance
4) Treat dwarven ally as being given a free flying "charge" attack, i.e. gets to deliver an MBA or Bull Rush, and let the dwarf player roll the attack.

-Dan'L

 

[Lord Zardoz]

I am actually more interested in the 'Unwilling target used as projectile' variant.

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[Primitive Screwhead]

The use of a ranged power seems like an interesting idea, but most powers I am aware of require a standard action to use. We are already using a standard action for Strength vs Fort as per the 'Move a grabbed opponent' option.

<snip>
I do not recall seeing the improvised weapon rules. Where are they?

Thats why I added the move action of 'Heft', to allow Standard grab, Heft, then standard action throw.. which could be combined with a ranged power.. at least as far as the damage and effects go. Range would still be based on the athletics check.

Improvised weapons are in the PHB on the weapons chart and are meant to be things like mugs, chairs, casks, etc... For some reason the authors never seem to want to answer the question of 'how much damage does a dwarf in spiked leather do?'

 

[Pssthpok]

nobody tosses a dwarf...

 

[Mort_Q]

Why not just make it an assisted jump?

 

[Amaroq]

In all seriousness, our campaign has twice had a character leaping onto another from great height.

The rules we decided on were basically:

Standard Action:
Strength or Dexterity vs Reflex to hit.

Hit:
Both attacker and target take falling damage for the fall.
Target is pushed one square and knocked prone.
Attacker ends his move standing in the target's original square.

Miss:
Attacker takes falling damage for the fall.
Attacker is pushed into the nearest empty square adjacent to the target.
Attacker falls prone.

Effect:
The attacker's turn ends.

So, in our campaign, precedent would dictate that whatever rules we came up with for the "throw" mechanic, the result ought to be much the same.

Thus, it would be a lot more useful to toss one kobold at another (damaging both) than to toss the party dwarf at an enemy.

Speaking of which, I'd say the dwarf's racial bonus ought to apply, full stop, regardless of whether he's a willing recipient or not. That's why dwarf-tossing is an Olympic event, but halfling-tossing isn't.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Why not just make it an assisted jump?

I am presuming that the Dwarf is Hostile, or otherwise unwilling.

Speaking of which, I'd say the dwarf's racial bonus ought to apply, full stop, regardless of whether he's a willing recipient or not. That's why dwarf-tossing is an Olympic event, but halfling-tossing isn't.

The dwarf's racial power is for Push, Pull, or Slide. I suppose there is some grey area in there to work with, leaving it up to the DM.

As for using the improvised weapons entries, they seem to be for smaller and more typical weapons (a thrown rock, a chair used as a club), generally anything between 1 to 5 pounds. I still think the table on page 42 of the DMG is a better choice for this ruling.

So there does seem to be some consensus about using 2 standard and 1 move action to grab and throw an unwilling target, and the use of the Jump check as a baseline for the throw distance but at halved distance also seems acceptable and within the spirit of the rules. I still require answers to some of my other questions:

Questions:
Should the damage be treated as a Normal Damage Expression, Medium, or as a Limited Damage Expression, Medium?

The only dissenting view suggests using the Improvised weapons, I would like more feedback.

In the event that the attacker is tossing a larger or smaller object (Say an Ogre or a small Dog), should the damage be scaled up or down to the target and / or the projectile?

What sort of modifier would you apply to the Athletics check DC for the throw regarding distance traveled? How would you change it if the projectile is a small dog or dwarf? Specifically, I am looking for the DC modifiers for something dwarf sized vs something larger or smaller, and for a DC relative to presumed gear

Should the throw DC modifier be scaled with the level of the projectile, or be static with respect to mass?

What steps would change if the projectile were already deceased?

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