Should the Bard have been primal?

[Garthanos]

The Bard seems to be inspired by some older archetypes with stronger nature connections to the magics the classic celtic bard was considered a branch of the druidry.

Advanced Celtic Shamanism - Google Books
Taliesin Taliesin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Pied Piper a malevolent enchanter with very strong influence over animals. Pied Piper of Hamelin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On Bards, And Bardic Circles
Bardic poetry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

shrug just a thought... there is a certain amount of arbitrariness to the power sources.

 

[Ryujin]

I don't think so. Today's Bard is less of a storyteller, more of a "music as magic" character. It fits more with the Tolkien concept of the music of creation being the magic that underlies reality.

The classic Celtic Bard might have worked as a Primal character but then he'd have been a storyteller, historian, and somewhat of a priest. You'd find him singing clan histories at the deathbed of chiefs, not singing up a fireball.

 

[Garthanos]

I don't think so. Today's Bard is less of a storyteller, more of a "music as magic" character. It fits more with the Tolkien concept of the music of creation being the magic that underlies reality.

could be used as argument for Divine Bard in LOTR.

The classic Celtic Bard might have worked as a Primal character but then he'd have been a storyteller, historian, and somewhat of a priest. You'd find him singing clan histories at the deathbed of chiefs, not singing up a fireball.

And read the list of Bardic Knowledges (aside from Streetwise...) fits damn perfect to the above

Fire ball? where... Rhyme of fire does feel like a classic curse style effect

I could do without all the Sound Blast effects but as a player I can chose not to select those.

The prophecy effects are direct nods to the Classic Bard Seer...and the religious role.

I want the shape shifter features for building Taliesin with but ... dang hybrid to any of the primal classes with shape shift is MAD... guess bards are supposed to MC but that gives you nil for at-wills with shape shift.... not even basic attacks.... arghhhh.

 

[Ryujin]

Fireball was tossed in for effect, not accuracy.

Wouldn't multiclassing to Druid and then using the Combat Virtuoso feat give you what you're looking for? Sure, you'd need a 13 WIS, but that isn't that tough to manage, is it?

 

[Garthanos]

Fireball was tossed in for effect, not accuracy.

Wouldn't multiclassing to Druid and then using the Combat Virtuoso feat give you what you're looking for? Sure, you'd need a 13 WIS, but that isn't that tough to manage, is it?

just get one at will with beast for the key word only useable once per encounter... no... at-wills and no basic attack even... horrible effect. Thulsa Doom turns in to snake gets a quick one shot suprise attack then unless he turns back in to human cant manage a basic attack even till he turns back human... Presumedly when you are only multiclassed to Druid you can tap the bestial instinct once to do that attack but are generally as confused about your new form as to be not much better than a new born of that species... til you have had time to settle your nerves (*aka next encounter).

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, the 4e bard is a storyteller.

But 'storyteller' isn't 'evoking the spirits of the world to transform things into other things' which is the heart of Primal.

What the bard does is use X (which is not the powersource) to alter reality so that it better suits their version of things. They're arcane because they reshape the local reality to suit their whims using knowledge of how the world works.

Step 1: Tell tales of valor/cunning/prescience.
Step 2: Infuse the tales you tell with the sigla of arcane power.
Step 3: Arcana-enhanced tales then change the local reality to become more like those tales.
Step 4: Everyone becomes the heroes you're telling tales about.
Step 5: Go mack on the ladies.

The thing to remember is that this isn't even like a vestige warlock who is invoking the past spirits (tho not in the same sense primal characters do)... the tales you spin can be complete fictions, fables, parables, or what have you. Untrue stories can inspire just as much as real stories. You just weave some real magic power into your stories that make people -become- them.

That ain't like primal: Primal characters let spirits ride them and transform them (barbarians, druids, wardens), or have spirits ride their weapons (seekers), or have spirits sitting right there (shamans).

Bards don't evoke spirits. They change realities.



(in before reskinning)

 

[MrMyth]

While I think there is room for Skald-style primal bards, I don't think it should be the default. Civilization, learning, lore - these are all key elements of the common view of the bard, and I think arcane is a proper place for them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Multiclass barbarian is the way to go for a warrior skald.

You have at least one barbarian secondary very high. You can easily power swap the utility for a nice effect. (+charisma to damage once per day)

 

[DracoSuave]

Why would a skald be primal tho?

The question to be asked is: How does he summon spirits, and what do those spirits do?



There seems to be a bit of confusion over the primal power source... I'll help to explain.


Primal power is not 'I am uncivilized and come from a culture that is not based in cities.' Primal power is 'I evoke the spirits of the prime material plane and entreat them to transform me, or do work on my behalf.'

A skald-type bard could be... well... a bard. The same class. Nothing changes. He's not bringing down the might of the World Serpent here. He's weaving tales of heroes, the sagas, and using that and some magical trickery to inspire others to the same. He's still arcane in the exact way a sorcerer is. He's using his own mastery over magic itself to create his effect.

I mean, maybe he's wearing a loincloth, has a horned helmet, and he's got a spear in his hand, and perhaps he tales he tells are of Thor and Loki using valor and trickery to win over the ice giants... but that just means he's telling different stories, not drawing power from the spirits of the prime material plane.

 

[Garthanos]

There are serious tales of bards enchanting animals to do there bidding and taking the forms of a series of beasts... the mythic and historic connect between them and druids feels completely unreachable ... without serious and hairy MAD hybrid just doesnt work I am ofcourse want cake and eating it too but the main issue is probably the Wisdom Charisma Intelligence Dex Con attribute spreading ... and being mostly a bard and multiclassing to druid is unsatisfactory as well unless you just use it to shift and run with it

Taliesin, level 6
Human, Bard|Druid
Hybrid Bard: Hybrid Bard Reflex
Hybrid Druid: Hybrid Druid Will
Hybrid Talent: Primal Aspect
Primal Aspect: Primal Predator

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 18.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 11, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 15.


AC: 19 Fort: 15 Reflex: 17 Will: 20
HP: 48 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 12

TRAINED SKILLS
History +8, Nature +13, Religion +8, Perception +11, Bluff +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +7, Arcana +7, Diplomacy +11, Dungeoneering +10, Endurance +6, Heal +10, Insight +10, Intimidate +11, Stealth +7, Streetwise +11, Thievery +7, Athletics +6

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Skins of the Slain
Level 2: Animal Empathy
Level 4: Bard of All Trades
Level 6: Agile Form

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Misdirected Mark
Hybrid at-will 1: Vicious Mockery
Hybrid at-will 1: Grasping Claws
Hybrid encounter 1: Thorn Spray
Hybrid daily 1: Summon Fierce Boar
Hybrid utility 2: Song of Courage
Hybrid encounter 3: Charger's Call
Hybrid daily 5: Satire of Bravery
Hybrid utility 6: Black Harbinger

ITEMS
Farbond Spellblade Longsword +2, Magic Hide Armor +2, Cape of the Mountebank +1, Hide Armor, Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Wand Implement