Action Point Question

[Robtheman]

Hello and thanks in advance for any responses.

I recently tried to use an action point after teleporting into the air to use a encounter power to knock a flying dragonling prone. I missed and then decided to use an action point to attack again. The DM said I could not use an action point that round because I would fall before I could use it.

I view Action Points as your characters way of making a super human effort to down it's enemy, get someplace in the knick of time, or bring an ally back from the edge of death. IMO, these attempts don't take more than the 6 seconds a normal round takes, but rather happen faster. With this reasoning, my character would not have fallen any farther in the time it took to take the second action. In essence, if the PC can teleport into the air and attack once before falling, he should be able to action point and attack a second time in a heroic attempt to bring down the deadly flying enemy.

Disregarding Rule of Cool, etc., is there any precedent for the ruling at the table? I cannot find anything that specifically restricts using an action point in mid-air, nor can I find information saying whether the extra action extends the time it takes to complete your round.

- Rob

 

[Antronach]

It seems to be purely up to the DM's discretion. However keeping in mind that if someone has a attack power with a heavy crossbow that attacks 3 targets, he's considered to load the thing 3 times, i usually don't let physics get in the way of said "rule of cool".

 

[Mort_Q]

It's a free action that can't be taken on anyone's turn but your own, and not during a surprise round, and only once during an encounter.

The DM can limit free actions though, but the falling excuse isn't supported by the RAW.

 

[mneme]

Hmm. Pro: see mort.

Con: While spending an action point is a free action, you can't take the resulting action in the middle of another action; only sequentially. You can't use, say, Aspect of Speed and spend an action point before your second shift to make a second melee attack. So there's a good argument that the consequences of an action have to be resolved before you can spend an action point.

That said, it's cool, and I'd allow it for PCs.

I would -not- likely allow it for NPCs/monsters; monsters just don't get to be as cool as PCs do.

 

[Aulirophile]

Hello and thanks in advance for any responses.

I recently tried to use an action point after teleporting into the air to use a encounter power to knock a flying dragonling prone. I missed and then decided to use an action point to attack again. The DM said I could not use an action point that round because I would fall before I could use it.

I view Action Points as your characters way of making a super human effort to down it's enemy, get someplace in the knick of time, or bring an ally back from the edge of death. IMO, these attempts don't take more than the 6 seconds a normal round takes, but rather happen faster. With this reasoning, my character would not have fallen any farther in the time it took to take the second action. In essence, if the PC can teleport into the air and attack once before falling, he should be able to action point and attack a second time in a heroic attempt to bring down the deadly flying enemy.

Disregarding Rule of Cool, etc., is there any precedent for the ruling at the table? I cannot find anything that specifically restricts using an action point in mid-air, nor can I find information saying whether the extra action extends the time it takes to complete your round.

- Rob

RAW you actually cannot take an action, unless it is a free/no action, before a previous action is resolved. Teleporting is a move action. Part of the conclusion of that if you teleport (or jump) up is the falling. So even the first attack would not have worked (teleport up > fall > now you can take a standard... oh wait).Obviously this is really hard to imagine, if you teleport above a dragon and fall onto him, RAW has nothing for that (I would personally adapt the catch hold rules and/or the acrobatics balance rule). Technically though your DM was already being generous.

 

[Mort_Q]

...you can't take the resulting action in the middle of another action; only sequentially.

Citation?

 

[Ketjak]

System is unclear - in 4e you can only use one AP per encounter, IIRC.

 

[mneme]

Aulirophile, we're giving the player the benefit of the doubt, and assuming they used a "teleport and attack" power. They exist, after all.

 

[Dan'L]

Spending an Action Point to gain an additional action (Standard/Move/Minor) is itself a Free Action (PHB p. 286).

USING the action gained by spending the Action Point, however, is not a free action but rather a Standard/Move/Minor action separate from any others you have on your turn.

The question is then, can you take a Standard/Move/Minor before the resolution of another on your turn?

While the rules don't explicitly state that you can't, they neither explicitly state that you can. However, Opportunity Actions and Immediate Interrupts DO explicitly state that they are used before the resolution of other actions are concluded (PHB p. 268), suggesting that such language is necessary to make an exception over a standard form of resolution, i.e. not nesting actions within other actions' resolutions.

Also, the Crashing rules from the DMG (p. 47-48) would seem to indicate that falling is immediately resolved when you are in the air without a means of control (e.g. flying)

Since you can't take OAs or Immediate Actions on your own turn, and an Action Point doesn't grant one anyway, the massive circumstancial evidence suggests that, by RAW, you cannot make any standard, move, or minor action (attack or otherwise) until you resolve the falling from a height.

I suggest that the "Rule of Cool" is what led to the DM allowing even the first attack, and that is completely within the DMs purview to say "no" to allowing a second attack via an Action Point.

Hope this helps!

-Dan'L

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Citation?

General rules on actions on PHB page 269, "you can take your actions in any order you wish", which implies there is an order to them. Standard, Move, and Minor actions thus happen sequentially in whatever order the player desires.

The falling rules don't deal with TIME in any way shape or form. When the criteria are met to be falling, you just fall. If a PC walks off a cliff or teleports into the air their action ends and at that point they fall to the ground below.

So technically by RAW you can't jump up and hit something or teleport into the air and attack, etc. Its not that there is a rule to cite which prevents this, it simply can't happen within the action structure of 4e. Obviously this is a limitation DMs can pretty easily overcome but it does require some fudging with the rules.