Temple of Elemental Evil - expectations

[howandwhy99]

See, this is what confuses me. T1's adventure was the moathouse -- a quintessential dungeon crawl.

The Temple was a super-dungeon crawl in the same vein. So I don't understand how people were expecting something else. ToEE was exactly what I expected based on T1's adventure.

So whether ToEE was good or not, I don't see how folks could be disappointed in or surprised by it being a big ol' dungeon crawl.

Bullgrit

T1 had two major dungeons: Hommlet and the Moathouse. Two opposing forces with enemies to the other in each.

T1-4 included a neutral village with several chaotic forces within and then a very long dungeon crawl through several enemies under the temple grounds level above. There was no countervailing lawful dungeon like Verbobonc detailed.

The adventure did include some of the first dynamic dungeon design in terms of forces moving into no longer occupied territories, relationships between enemies with uneasy truces between factions, and the like. What it didn't include was a safe area to retreat to for players in case these forces came piling out of this hole in the ground.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

ToEE was great when I played in it as a player, 23 years ago.

RttToEE was waaaaay too damned long and grindy, and I only got through it as a player because it was my first game under 3E.

I suspect that nowadays, as a player, I wouldn't be able to stomach ToEE.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

What it didn't include was a safe area to retreat to for players in case these forces came piling out of this hole in the ground.

Or space to find alternate routes and such. Or space to run and lose pursuit. Once the resistance to incursions starts getting underway, your options are very narrow.

 

[Pelenor]

TOEE is a pretty good adventure but its very tricky to run right and surely isn't to everyone's taste. There are a number of things to keep in mind to keep it from being a giant slog.

1. It is not needed for the part to find and go through every single encounter in the thing. Enough so they can be appropriate level for challenges as the module goes along yes. Every single encounter no.

2. Factions are the key here. Interactions between the factions is one of the things that makes this a "living" adventure. I've seen people do this through straight forward combat. But, I've also seen people play the factions against each other and gotten the factions to start taking each other out.

3. The other thing to keep in mind that relates to number 2 is to remember the factions are constantly adding new members to replace lost ones. If the DM is clever about you can use these to make the temple interesting without making it grindy.

Make no mistake this adventure is a difficult one to run without it being boring. It can be done but I would not advise an inexperienced DM to try it.

 

[Marx420]

I think these "expectations" are a large part why mine and many other groups wound up on the critical side the fence for TOEE, it was obviously a module for a particular playstyle and very much a product of it's era, and it's gameplay paradigms just don't mesh with certain groups. Having run it recently for a group that gets violent at the mere mention of "town adventures" and gives the DM noogies, I can say with certitude that they had a blast kicking ass and taking names and the faint hints of "roleplaying" I incorporated with the factions and the demons were enough to keep them invested. Not all groups have that level of attention span, however, and demand more diversity in their venturing. Though I've run it successfully before, I would think hard about whether your group enjoys this style of play before dropping a megacrawl upon them.

 

[TheYeti1775]

It can be nothing but a grind it out wall to wall combat fest or it can be a complete roleplaying experience. I've gone through multiple ways during play and running.
Really depends on the group.

Playing the factions against one another is a big part of the T series. You can even find ways of doing that during the Moathouse itself. i.e. The cloaks in the storeroom of the Moathouse with the 'Yellow Eye of Fire' (Area 20 of the Dungeon in the Moathouse). While you have to find out the info that makes the cloaks themselves valuable or to use them the options are there for it.

If you want to have a slugfest, bring lots of fighters, clerics with healing magic and mages with silence scrolls to be cast on rocks to block the sounds of battle from going down the hall to alert the reinforcements.


While I wish the nodes were a little more filled out, it made for a great mmmm I could make one of these moments for some characters.

Many miss/ignore the interactions of Zuggtmoy and the rest of the Dieties, or run her as a simple monster.

 

[darjr]

A lot of the villiage was that it was a setting. In town had a lot of potential.

I think that the really successful TOEE games use it as a type of Dungeon setting. I think that Mearls even had players infiltrate a faction and spend a great deal of time under cover, as it were.

 

[howandwhy99]

Or space to find alternate routes and such. Or space to run and lose pursuit. Once the resistance to incursions starts getting underway, your options are very narrow.

This is very true. Not only does the spatial configuration of the map alter the difficulty of the area, the number of exits/entrances to each from a safer territory does as well.

I'll also add in that greater variety is the spice of life and a key element to good module creation. Something that Gygax knew well, even if it isn't well represented in this case.

 

[MortonStromgal]

See, this is what confuses me. T1's adventure was the moathouse -- a quintessential dungeon crawl.

The Temple was a super-dungeon crawl in the same vein. So I don't understand how people were expecting something else. ToEE was exactly what I expected based on T1's adventure.

So whether ToEE was good or not, I don't see how folks could be disappointed in or surprised by it being a big ol' dungeon crawl.

Bullgrit

IIRC T1 was 80% the Village. It had plenty of side quests and npcs to fill your time BEFORE you went to the moat house. The moat house also wasn't too long.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I'll also add in that greater variety is the spice of life and a key element to good module creation. Something that Gygax knew well, even if it isn't well represented in this case.

Yes, I agree. I have a huge respect for Gygax's work, it's just that T2-4 doesn't seem up to par, in my opinion. I know it was a big project to get into publishable form (megadungeons, even smaller ones like ToEE, don't lend themselves to publication, IMO). It may have suffered from being a joint project, as well. (Which is not to say that I think Frank messed it up, just that being a hand-off made it that much more difficult to develop and present without some flies in the ointment.)