Why is flight considered a game breaker?

[Steelwill]

This should sum it all up...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU"]YouTube - How Lord of The Rings Should Have Ended[/ame]

This is why flight is OP in a fantasy setting

 

[Kafen]

Alter Self is a second level spell and gets you in the air. It stands to reason that there could be a 3rd level spell that was better than Alter Self (for example, average manueverability, higher speed, but still winged flight) which people might cast in preference to Alter Self. The only reason that they don't, is the jump between the options at 2nd level and Fly is enormous. Fly gives you good manueverability, high speed, and stable (wingless) flight. That's awesome.

It's too awesome. It's not in step with the logical progression, and it's level is not being capped by the introduction of something obviously superior soon after.

I like this one. I might move the spell up to 4th level and see what happens.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Alter Self is a second level spell and gets you in the air. It stands to reason that there could be a 3rd level spell that was better than Alter Self (for example, average manueverability, higher speed, but still winged flight) which people might cast in preference to Alter Self. The only reason that they don't, is the jump between the options at 2nd level and Fly is enormous. Fly gives you good manueverability, high speed, and stable (wingless) flight. That's awesome.

It's too awesome. It's not in step with the logical progression, and it's level is not being capped by the introduction of something obviously superior soon after.

Well, there is the duration. Alter Self is 10/min level and can often last "all dungeon," especially later on. Fly is only min/level and will seldom benefit more than 1 or 2 encounters.

Higher level Fly spells seem to be more about "Mass" casting or long duration flight, usually at the expense of something else. For example, my favorite fly spell is Flight of the Dragon which is 10 min/level and 4th level (or 5th level and hour/level in the version i prefer, before SpC nerfed it and lowered the level). The duration and speed 100 are boosts over Fly, but the self only aspect and only Average maneuverability are steep prices for those benefits.

Fly is a little too good at level 3, though. I think 4 is a better call, and at level 2 or 3 I'd rather see some sort of flying ability that requires minor concentration to maintain. If you get hit and fail to keep concentrated, the spell ands and you plummet. But it'd be a swift action to maintain, not standard like normal concentration spells. I'd want a person to be able to fight with it up.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

The Fly spell specifically as a problem is also largely a 3E phenomenon, since in previous editions Fly was a 3rd level spell that had to compete with Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and Haste for spell slots, and that was a losing battle. As good as Fly is, those three were the god spells of AD&D. Flying in AD&D was more a case of you getting lucky enough to get yourself a magic item that let you fly.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I agree, in principle, but realize that the game world changes (radically) from a lot of fantasy worlds if you take this route.

Now this is absolutely not true in an E6 environment. In the first six levels, access to flight is limited, duration is short and the only class that can have it one command (the Sorcerer) needs to pick it as their signature spell. Getting the entire party to fly is a major accomplishment.

Where this begins to be an issue is with medium to high levels. Starting at level 15 or so (well with-in the level range of the PhB), characters can start having perfect and silent flight for hours at a time while being invisible. There are counters (True seeing has too short of a range but see invisible exists) but they can't be up all of the time. Characters sleep in alternate dimensions and cross continents with a word.

Flying in high level games is more effective than modern methods of flight. It allows hovering, turning on a dime, doesn't create lot's of noise and there is no amplification of danger if you get hit. Compare that to the closest modern technological solution (the helicopter) where hits magnify danger tremendously and it cannot sneak up on you.

Despite these disadvantages (relative to D&D flight), aircraft have transformed the nature of warfare. Large and tight formations are a thing of the past. The idea of deploying melee weapon only troops is considered only for specialized (stealth) missions.

I think a high level fantasy game would have these features as well. Everyone would carry ranged weapons. People would move thinking about cover. Large formations would be abandoned. Units without enhanced sensory gear (see invisible) would be at a tremendous disadvantage and it would need to be available to nearly everyone.

Alternatively, clever players are (literally) superheroes. One annoyed wizard can smash an army with little risk (protection from missiles, overland flight, teleport and great invisibility -- plus ranged area effect attack spells).

It is certainly doable and can be fun but it's also a pretty clear arms race. Flight is simply straight good as opposed to being an interesting option. My main issue with 3/3.5 era flight is that it is riskier to fly via mount than via spell -- if the mount is killed you fall (fast) whereas if the spell is dispelled you feather fall (automatically). This is odd to me . . .

Well, that's what I was saying with the power tiers in 3E. E6 is a rather simple and effective solution to cut off the next tier from happening to much of an extent if you prefer low level feel and restrictions. As for continuous flight, out of core Warlock literally can have unlimited flight, though self only, it'd be his ONLY lesser invocation, ever, and...the Warlock class is rather limited anyway.

I agree that by level 15 everyone is probably flying, often times every combat or even all day. I just don't see it as an issue because of all the other incredibly super human stuff PCs are doing by that level.

And I hate the term "arms race" being thrown around so much in this thread. Between levels 5 and 15, a Fighter's adding +10 to hit from class alone, and another several points from enhancments on the weapon, str, etc... A creature needs a higher AC to be a challenge to the level 15 fighter. Is that also an arms race? To me, it' just levelling.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And I hate the term "arms race" being thrown around so much in this thread. Between levels 5 and 15, a Fighter's adding +10 to hit from class alone, and another several points from enhancments on the weapon, str, etc... A creature needs a higher AC to be a challenge to the level 15 fighter. Is that also an arms race? To me, it' just levelling.

I cannae posrep ye, but, um this.

Any game with an advancement system is in an implicit arms race as you gain levels. Complaining about needing special wards to undo flight is like complaining about needing critters with an attack bonus of 10 to hit a PC with an AC of 20.

But perhaps the binary nature of the power leads to something more disgruntling. It's not like there's one universal method for getting rid of flight, and it's not like flight is on a continuum (floating -> gliding -> flying like a bird -> flying like a Beholder -> teleporting -> whatever). It might lack integration in ways that AC and Attack Bonus have integration.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Well, that's what I was saying with the power tiers in 3E. E6 is a rather simple and effective solution to cut off the next tier from happening to much of an extent if you prefer low level feel and restrictions. As for continuous flight, out of core Warlock literally can have unlimited flight, though self only, it'd be his ONLY lesser invocation, ever, and...the Warlock class is rather limited anyway.

I agree that by level 15 everyone is probably flying, often times every combat or even all day. I just don't see it as an issue because of all the other incredibly super human stuff PCs are doing by that level.

And I hate the term "arms race" being thrown around so much in this thread. Between levels 5 and 15, a Fighter's adding +10 to hit from class alone, and another several points from enhancments on the weapon, str, etc... A creature needs a higher AC to be a challenge to the level 15 fighter. Is that also an arms race? To me, it' just levelling.

The arms race exists in 3E whether you like it or not. Using only the rules as written, and any set of 3E rules as it is just as easy to do with just the core three as it is to do with a pile of splats(splats just give you more avenues to powergame), you can overpower the assumed power level of the 3.5E system and the power level of people who aren't optimizing. If somebody decides to go down this road, the other players must follow suit or end up the sidekicks of the superhero, and the DM must start powergaming himself or else just let the optimizers walk all over the campaign. In addition, 3E powergaming is not straightforward, and its often the weird and outlandish options that work(the iconic fantasy tropes not so much), and a game that goes down the powergaming road looks less and less like a fantasy world and more and more like Marvel/DC superheroes.

I don't consider having to play less well to avoid destroying the game a good solution.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I cannae posrep ye, but, um this.

Any game with an advancement system is in an implicit arms race as you gain levels. Complaining about needing special wards to undo flight is like complaining about needing critters with an attack bonus of 10 to hit a PC with an AC of 20.

In 3E, its not just advancement. If you boil down total character power into a single number, some things in 3E add 1 to your power level, and some add 10, and every number in between. Something that adds 1 to your power level often costs the same amount of character building resources as something that adds 10.

A person who builds a character with options that add +1 to +4 to their power level will get dramatically different results than someone who tries to add 10 every time. In addition, the system assumes you're playing it down the middle, and somebody who builds weaker/stronger than the assumptions makes the DM have to wrestle the game up or down to their level, and god help them if the players are playing at wildly differing power levels.

 

[I'm A Banana]

In 3E, its not just advancement. If you boil down total character power into a single number, some things in 3E add 1 to your power level, and some add 10, and every number in between. Something that adds 1 to your power level often costs the same amount of character building resources as something that adds 10.

This 3e hate-fest is great and all, but I'm personally much more interested in figuring out a way to include flight from Level 1 in a way that doesn't hose DMs or Players, going forward, than I am in picking apart any given edition of D&D. Clearly, neither of the two extant versions get it quite right for me.

I mean, ideally, I want rules so that I can play a bird-man or a flying witch from the get-go and not be (a) gimped with rules minutae about "hovering," "turning radius," "minimum forward speed," "gliding," and blah blah, or (b) grossly overpowered for the party.

That shouldn't be impossible.

Maybe one way of getting at it is to have a continuum of flying and fly-negating effects, so that it's not a binary "you fly"/"you don't fly" thing. So at level 1, I can fly like a bird, but maybe not very quickly, and maybe not with attacking, and maybe if I get hit, it knocks me out of the air. And by the time I'm cresting the last levels of my character, maybe I can fly faster than most people can run simply by willing it to be, stop on a dime, and launch ballistae from orbit.

Or something.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

This 3e hate-fest is great and all, but I'm personally much more interested in figuring out a way to include flight from Level 1 in a way that doesn't hose DMs or Players, going forward, than I am in picking apart any given edition of D&D. Clearly, neither of the two extant versions get it quite right for me.

I mean, ideally, I want rules so that I can play a bird-man or a flying witch from the get-go and not be (a) gimped with rules minutae about "hovering," "turning radius," "minimum forward speed," "gliding," and blah blah, or (b) grossly overpowered for the party.

That shouldn't be impossible.

Maybe one way of getting at it is to have a continuum of flying and fly-negating effects, so that it's not a binary "you fly"/"you don't fly" thing. So at level 1, I can fly like a bird, but maybe not very quickly, and maybe not with attacking, and maybe if I get hit, it knocks me out of the air. And by the time I'm cresting the last levels of my character, maybe I can fly faster than most people can run simply by willing it to be, stop on a dime, and launch ballistae from orbit.

Or something.

It is nearly impossible because flying doesn't exist in a vacuum. This is a fantasy game, and there are iconic tropes like the knight in shining armor and big, strong, stupid ogres. Being iconic, these tropes need to have value, and the concept of many of these things doesn't really allow them to deal with flight very well. The knight can pull out a bow and the Ogre can throw a spear or rock, but in the big picture that really isn't what they do, and certainly not what they do best. One of the iconic abilities of the D&D Rogue is the ability to climb walls. Flight all by itself completely trumps the ability of Rogues to Climb Walls. Cheap and accessible flight changes the game at a fundamental level, either devaluing core fantasy concepts or forcing you to tack on solutions to flight that don't really belong.