D&D 4E Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign - Heroic tier (finished)

[RangerWickett]

10-foot pole of mule summoning?

 

[Piratecat]

10-foot pole of mule summoning?

Yup. It's a 10' pole that summons a staffwrought donkeyhorse mule. It's a real mule that lasts until the next extended rest. It doesn't attack, although it does poop, bray and carry things.

They're fighting what are effectively ghasts, using an amalgam of two different ghouls. The original monster had an aura 2 that gave -2 to all of the victim's attacks, ability checks, and skill checks. Since they're soldiers (with an already high set of defenses) that seemed a little less fun than I'd like; I swapped it with an aura that lowers defenses by -2. As a general rule I'd rather make the PCs easier to hit than the monster harder to hit.

[sblock=My players please don't click]
Greater Stench Ghoul Level 8 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid XP 350
Initiative +11 Senses Perception +5; darkvision
Sepuchral Stench aura 2; enemies in the aura takes a -2 penalty to all defenses.
HP 88; Bloodied 44
AC 24; Fortitude 20; Reflex 22; Will 18
Immune disease; poison; Resist 10 necrotic; Vulnerable 5 radiant
Speed 8 , Climb 4
m Claw (standard; at-will)
+15 vs AC; 2d6 + 5 damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends)
M Ghoulish Bite (minor 1/round; at-will)
Targets an immobilized creature; +15 vs AC; 2d6 + 5 damage, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Alignment Chaotic Evil Languages Common
Skills Athletics +13, Stealth +14
Str 18 (+8) Dex 20 (+9) Wis 13 (+5)
Con 16 (+7) Int 15 (+6) Cha 13 (+5)
[/sblock]
No monster spoilers for my players, please.

Monster xp totalled 1400, which would normally put this at about a lvl 6 encounter for six lvl 8 PCs (whose xp budget is 2100 for an on-level encounter). The tunnel and terrain deserved to be counted as a monster in and of itself.

Sagiro didn't mention it, but all the ghouls are women (from young girls to old women) and apparently they have some sort of matriarch deeper in the ghoul warren. Whatever the case, they didn't seem to have taken the men to eat right away.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

I'm curious about how the terrain worked. In my game, I've had a couple of fights in tight terrain-- one square wide tunnels and the like. In general, those fights have been really frustrating and not fun. They've been static, with the PCs at the front and the back getting mauled while the players of the other PCs are frustrated by not being able to do much of anything. My conclusion had been that that sort of environment just doesn't work well in 4e.

I'm curious how you avoided those issues. Did this work well? Was the key just the contrast between this and a more typical fight? How can you get the cool aspects of highly restrictive tunnel terrains and yet avoid the bad aspects?

(As an aside, a ten foot pole that summons a staffwrought donkeyhorse is awesome. )

 

[Piratecat]

I'm curious about how the terrain worked. In my game, I've had a couple of fights in tight terrain-- one square wide tunnels and the like. In general, those fights have been really frustrating and not fun. They've been static, with the PCs at the front and the back getting mauled while the players of the other PCs are frustrated by not being able to do much of anything. My conclusion had been that that sort of environment just doesn't work well in 4e.

It was exactly what I wanted it to feel like: cramped, claustrophobic, and deadly. I definitely wouldn't want to overuse this; the PCs had to crawl, everyone (including the ghoul attacking Logan from the back) was at -2 to hit, and the people in the middle were trapped. A few things made it work:

1. We started the fight near the end of one of the tunnels. That meant that as Cobalt was pulled out, Eli Caldwell had a little bit of maneuvering room.

2. Logan used his Cape of the Mountebank to maneuver into a slightly better position behind the ghoul.

3. Bramble the shaman's companion could be summoned out in the open chamber, even though Bramble stayed safely inside the tunnel.

4. I started them spaced out 2 squares apart.

5. Allies don't provide cover vs ranged attack rolls.

This didn't help make up for execrable damage rolls on the part of the heroes, but it meant that the people in the middle of the line mostly had things to do and had a little more space to maneuver.

 

[Rechan]

Since they were all fighting soldiers, how'd you manage to avoid this getting grindy, PCat? Especially with the low damage rolls?

A bit too late, but according to D&D Alumni, the MM3 will have official ghasts. I'm... curious how they'll be different from the normal ones.

 

[Sagiro]

The Grey Guard has just dinged 8th level, so I thought I'd do a second survey of the party's basic stats.

For context, the party now consists of:

Bramble, Wilden Protector Shaman (leader)
Caldwell, Human Two-blade Ranger (striker)
Logan, Human Shadowy Rogue (striker)
Cobalt, Human Brawny Rogue (striker)
Gilran, Drow Chaos Sorcerer (striker)
Strontium, Warforged War Wizard (controller)

So, as you might imagine, we're offense-heavy and defense-light in a spectacular way. No one wears armor heavier than leather.

Our average ability scores are as follows:

STR: 12.83
CON: 13.50
DEX: 17.17
INT: 14.17
WIS: 12.33
CHA: 12.17

So, nimble and book-smart, but lacking in charisma and common sense. The lowest DEX in the party is 12 (Bramble).

Four of the six PC's now have a 20 stat, but that's as high as we get. No one started with a “20” at 1st Level.

Caldwell continues to be the Balanced Guy: his ability scores at 8th level are 17, 11, 15, 14, 15, 12. While not optimized for combat, he has the highest total skill numbers in the party by a wide margin, in large part due to his Jack of All Trades feat.

Total Skill Points:

Caldwell: 154
Strontium: 144
Logan: 139
Bramble: 136
Gilran: 131
Cobalt: 129

Our best average skill is Stealth (average +11.83, lowest is a +7)
Second best is Acrobatics (average +10.83, lowest is a +5)

Our worst average skill is still Dungeoneering (average +5.67, highest is a +9)
Second worst is Streetwise (average +6.50, highest is a +10)

Our best individual skills are:
Logan's STEALTH (+20)
Gilran's INTIMIDATE (+16)
Bramble's NATURE (+16)
Bramble's PERCEPTION (+16)
Gilran's BLUFF (+15)
Gilran's DIPLOMACY (+15)
Strontium's ARCANA (+15)
Cobalt's ATHLETICS (+15)

While Caldwell has the most total Skill bonuses, his best skill is only +12. But his WORST skill is +6. (By contrast, Cobalt has NINE skills worse than +6)

Broken down by skill, with our two best for each:

ACROBATICS: Logan +14, Cobalt +14
ARCANA: Strontium +15, Bramble +11, Caldwell +11
ATHLETICS: Cobalt +15, Logan +12, Caldwell +12
BLUFF: Gilran +15, Cobalt +10
DIPLOMACY: Gilran +15, Caldwell +7
DUNGEONEERING: Bramble +9, Caldwell +8
ENDURANCE: Cobalt +10, Strontium +9
HEAL: Bramble +14, Caldwell +11
HISTORY: Strontium +13, Caldwell +10
INSIGHT: Bramble +14, Gilran +10, Strontium +10
INTIMIDATE: Gilran +16, Cobalt +10
NATURE: Bramble +16, Caldwell +11
PERCEPTION: Bramble +16, Caldwell +11
RELIGION: Strontium +10, Caldwell +8, Logan +8
STEALTH: Logan +20, Cobalt +14
STREETWISE: Cobalt +10, Gilran +9
THIEVERY: Logan +14, Cobalt +14

Our defenses, presented in various ways:

Our party average defenses are:

AC: 21.33
FORT: 19.33
REF: 21.33
WILL: 19.83

Our AC's range from 19 (Bramble) to 24 (Cobalt)
Our FORTs range from 17 (Strontium) to 21 (Caldwell and Cobalt)
Our REFs range from 19 (Bramble) to 25 (Cobalt)
Our WILLs range from 17 (Logan) to 23 (Gilran)

Total Defense Scores:

Cobalt: 88
Gilran: 83
Logan: 82
Bramble: 81
Caldwell: 80
Strontium: 77

Best Defenses:

Cobalt's REF (25)
Logan's REF (24)
Cobalt's AC (24)
Gilran's WILL (23)
Logan's AC (23)

With no defender, it looks like Cobalt is the best “tank,” as his AC, FORT and REF defenses are all either best or tied for best in the party. Here they are in full:

Gilran: 22 AC, 18 FORT, 20 REF, 23 WILL
Caldwell: 20 AC, 21 FORT, 20 REF, 19 WILL
Logan: 23 AC, 18 FORT, 24 REF, 17 WILL
Cobalt: 24 AC, 21 FORT, 25 REF, 18 WILL
Strontium: 20 AC, 17 FORT, 20 REF, 20 WILL
Bramble: 19 AC, 21 FORT, 19 REF, 22 WILL

Other assorted stats:

Party Max HP:

Gilran: 67
Bramble: 66
Caldwell: 63
Cobalt: 59
Logan: 58
Strontium: 51

Healing Surges per Day:

Bramble: 11
Gilran: 8
Cobalt: 7
Strontium: 7
Caldwell: 6
Logan: 6

Initiative Modifiers:

Cobalt: +10
Logan: +9
Gilran: +8
Strontium: +7
Caldwell: +6
Bramble: +5

 

[Rechan]

Sagiro, you have too much time on your hands.

 

[Piratecat]

Running player commentary on PCat's 4E Campaign

There was no grind, but I wouldn't expect any; one ghoul fled so this was essentially a lvl 5 encounter, easy-peasy for lvl 8 heroes. We'll see about next game when it's 2 encounters in one and the undead school mistress arrives. A TPK is not impossible.

Well, if the ghouls didn't want the men for something other than food, that is...

 

[Rechan]

undead school mistress...

Despite the "undead", I still think that phrase has the potential for hotness.

Well, if the ghouls didn't want the men for something other than food, that is...

Which makes me picture them just looking very confusedly at Strontium.

 

[Sagiro]

There was no grind, but I wouldn't expect any; one ghoul fled so this was essentially a lvl 5 encounter, easy-peasy for lvl 8 heroes. We'll see about next game when it's 2 encounters in one and the undead school mistress arrives. A TPK is not impossible.

Well, if the ghouls didn't want the men for something other than food, that is...

Piratecat, I'm curious: given that the ghoul who fled still managed to both a) land many attacks, and b) absorb many of our attacks and resources (all before it fled, of course), how does that fact that it eventually fled change the level of the encounter?

If there is going to be a TPK for a group like ours, this is certainly the kind of scenario I'd expect it: mobility-restricting bad-guys in a cramped, mobility-restricting place, and two combats unexpectedly combining into one encounter, thus limiting our use of Encounter Powers and Action Points. (Fortunately, the nature of the campaign is one that can absorb a TPK pretty well. We'd all just bring in fresh recruits to the Grey Guard and possibly even pick up exactly where the TPK-ed group had left off.) Not that I want that to happen, of course!

I agree with PCat that it didn't feel at all grindy -- just scary and claustrophobic.