Going Back in Time...AD&D

[the Jester]

Originally Posted by AD&D1 DMG page 81

Interesting- my copy has it on page 82.

I never knew this was possible either, and I don't think anyone I have ever gamed with did either.

 

[Bullgrit]

See, the thing is, when someone claims that AD&D1 is an easier, faster, simpler, rules light game system compared to later editions, it seems the claimer is always talking about their experience with a heavily house ruled version of the system.

As written, AD&D1 is pretty complicated – “advanced,” even. This was by design. To make AD&D1 easier, faster, simpler, and rules light, many players house ruled out the inconveniences and complications. Like:

Weapon vs. AC
Weapon speed
Surprise
Spell casting times
Psionics
Declaring actions before rolling initiative
Rolling saves for every item when the character falls in a pit or takes fireball damage
Healing from negative hit points
Level limits for demi-humans
Training for leveling up
Helmet rule
Ability score generation
Etc.

Sometimes such things were not intentionally/explicitly house ruled out, but rather were just not known, ignored off hand, or forgotten about. And such games were completely legitimate for that group. My own AD&D1 games were like this. I bet that the OP played his recent AD&D1 game like this. And that’s all cool and happy.

What’s not cool and happy is making unfair and slighting comparisons to other editions based on house ruling out the unliked things from one edition, but keeping unliked things in the other edition.

It would love to hear how the OP ran his game -- what rules did he ignore or add to make his game run so smooth and fun? If it was so much better than his D&D4 games, maybe he should continue with his version of AD&D1. Or if he wants to stick with his D&D4 game, maybe he could pull out or add rules from it to make it run as smooth and fun as the AD&D1 stint.

Bullgrit

 

[Raven Crowking]

So a guy torn up by a fearsome troll gets dropped to negative hp, and giving him a slug of whiskey can stabilize him and keep him from bleeding out.

That is awesome.

You'd be surprised how often that happens in the source literature.....

As written, AD&D1 is pretty complicated – “advanced,” even.

I agree. And this is me, Raven Crowking, agreeing with you.

BUT despite this, I do believe that AD&D 1e is much faster than 4e. I know that it is so IME.

And I used:

Weapon vs. AC? CHECK!
Weapon speed? CHECK!*
Surprise? CHECK!*
Spell casting times? CHECK!*
Psionics? CHECK!*
Declaring actions before rolling initiative? CHECK!
Rolling saves for every item when the character falls in a pit or takes fireball damage? Often, but not always.
Healing from negative hit points? CHECK!
Level limits for demi-humans? CHECK!*
Training for leveling up? CHECK!
Helmet rule? CHECK!*
Ability score generation? CHECK!*

Things with an asterisk = there is a similar, but not co-equal, rule in RCFG.....designed by me, and included because these are things I like!

 

[jcayer]

Geez, I never meant for this to degenerate into an edition war, but I should have known better.

First off, what I found VERY interesting at my table was a bunch of guys, a couple of whom had played AD&D together, had the exact same rule tweaks as the guys they hadn't played with. So while it wasn't RAW, it seems to me there is a more generic Rules as Used for AD&D. As we all know, AD&D is extremely modular and allows for a great deal of tweaking.

I was not aware of the -3 needed days of bed rest. At the same time, that would have sucked for the player as one player controlled both characters who went to negative hit points.

As far as my comments regarding the different editions. They both have strengths and weaknesses. Right now, after almost 2 years, I'm getting tired of 4E combats taking 1+ hours. Take for instance our Dragonborn Fighter. He starts his turn with dragonbreath..bunch of attack rolls. Then uses Come and Get it, another bunch of attack rolls, and then when I finally get to attack him, he spews boiling dragon blood or whatever that is, more attack rolls. He's used 10-15 minutes of time and we haven't even finished a round. It's not his fault, he's playing the game as designed, and I have no problem with that. But it does make things slow.

Similarly, AD&D is brutal with numbers. Do I want a higher or lower value when I roll for this? It is amazingly inconsistent, but I enjoyed it very much, as did all of the players.

But like I said above, I want to have things move faster, and AD&D reminded us how that could happen.

We are planning another night to finish up Inverness next month and I'm pretty certain everyone is looking forward to it. A couple of the other players have started talking about DMing other AD&D modules, and yes, someone said it..."Tomb of Horrors".

A couple answers to questions. Savage Worlds, next on the list to try, but won't be for a while. It was 5 players, each controlling 2 characters. No NPCs.

Remember, it's not about the rules, or the system, or the tweaks, or any of that crap. It's about having fun, and that's what we did. Now go play the game of your choice and have a good time.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

See, the thing is, when someone claims that AD&D1 is an easier, faster, simpler, rules light game system compared to later editions, it seems the claimer is always talking about their experience with a heavily house ruled version of the system.

As written, AD&D1 is pretty complicated – “advanced,” even. This was by design. To make AD&D1 easier, faster, simpler, and rules light, many players house ruled out the inconveniences and complications. Like:

Weapon vs. AC
Weapon speed
Surprise
Spell casting times
Psionics
Declaring actions before rolling initiative
Rolling saves for every item when the character falls in a pit or takes fireball damage
Healing from negative hit points
Level limits for demi-humans
Training for leveling up
Helmet rule
Ability score generation
Etc.

I use all of the above rules except negative hp (an optional rule, btw) and weapon vs ac. I do use weapon vs armor. The surprise rules are a bit unintuitive, and we slowly phased that out. Psionics never came up because no one ever managed to make the incredibly rare roll to be psionic. Ability score generation is not much different from 3e and the much maligned weapon speed rarely comes up. By the raw, weapon speed is used only in duels and as a tie breaker on initiative. Also, item saves are only rolled on a failed save. Some of the things on your list make 1e a much more dynamic game than later editions. I have many, many more house rules for 3e/Pathfinder than I ever did in 1e. Mostly reverting to 1e versions of rules that 3e threw out the window, along with the bath water and the baby.

 

[amerigoV]

Oh, and can we stop the stupid slap fight and get on with the thread, please?

Heh, honestly, this is why I hang out here. I stopped playing D&D months ago and went to Savage Worlds. On their boards everyone is nice, reasonable, and respectful --- ie, boring

I come here for the train wrecks like this! I love how someone can post that they played a game and had fun. Within one page of the conversation it degenerates into a pissing match over obscure old rules and player psychology. Love it!

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Geez, I never meant for this to degenerate into an edition war, but I should have known better.

You didn't know you were stepping into the heavily mined DMZ warded by veterans of the edition wars? Some of us are so shell-shocked that if you don't carefully qualify and parse your post before hitting that button, we'll come out screaming "They're coming through the wire! I need illumination, dammit! We got mooks in the wire! To arms!"

Anyway, I'm glad you had fun. My edition of choice is OD&D, but I've been having a great time running AD&D, too. (Of course, there's a lot of overlap between those two.)

 

[Rel]

I would urge everybody participating in this thread to be extra courteous to their fellow posters.

 

[Bullgrit]

Geez, I never meant for this to degenerate into an edition war, but I should have known better.

Says the one who included subtle edition slights in his opening post?

You could have posted without the little digs at D&D4:

Last night, after a bit of planning, my regular group had a bonus session. We usually play every other Tuesday, but everyone was available, so we decided to put 4E away and give AD&D a try.

Most of us grew up playing it, but had a fair amount of fog clouding our memories. In the end, 5 players, created 2, level 5, characters each, in under an hour, and entered the Ghost Tower of Inverness(aka C2).

Everyone had a BLAST. Even the power gamer, who I was really worried about, came out with 2 different voices and RP'd his characters like never before.

Some interesting observations...squishy. While nobody died, someone fell in a hole in the first 10 minutes and burned up 30% of their hit points. I managed to bring 2 guys down to -3 and -5, but a couple of cure lights wounds and they eventually made it back to their feet.

Combat was very fun as it moved quickly. Sure, with 10 guys, a typical battle took about 30 minutes, but almost every stayed focused. Very few side conversations. We did not use a grid or miniatures.

Anyway, anyone who grew up playing this, I encourage you to dust it off and give it a try. The players felt free to do different things and we'll be finishing the adventure next month during another bonus session.

And I think it's funny how properly quoting a rule being used in the game system being played keeps being referred to as "obscure."

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

a combat time unit was a segment, not a round.

I used segments vice rounds, too.

From reading a lot of your posts, I think you and I had many similar experiences with AD&D1.

Bullgrit