D&D 4E Trying 4E Again

I agree with most of the advice you've already received, but I'd like to emphasize a few points.

DDI is not necessary. As you figured, the Stealth errata is the one most likely to come up. The skill challenge DCs changed too, but HS1 already uses the new numbers. You can pattern your own skill challenges off those.

To encourage role-play, don't announce your skill challenges and give them a list of choices, as the module format encourages. I recommend doing everything narratively, and when your players tell you what they want to do in-game, tell them what skill check to make. Be flexible: skill challenges are more of a loose framework than a tightly balanced game system. (For example, even for the skills listed as "1 success only", it won't break anything to allow your players to do two different things that happen to use the same skill.)

To keep combat short, remind yourself not to fight to the bitter end. Most of the opponents are kobolds and goblins who should totally bolt once the tide turns decisively in the PCs' favor. You could even have the bad guys flee when they still have a good shot at winning, if they've taken heavy losses. Have them role-play their panic as the PCs rough them up, a big shift from their initial taunts and jibes. I bet your players would get a kick out of that, and it might liven up combat beyond a miniatures game.

Looking at my copy, most encounters scale effortlessly to three. Yeah, when it's three monsters of type A and two of type B, you can just use two and one, no sweat.

HS2 is not a good immediate followup for no other reason than it's for level 4, and your PCs won't be there after HS1. I strongly recommend looking into Hammerfast. It's not a complete adventure, but it describes a dwarven town in detail, giving locations and NPCs to inspire plenty of adventures. It even has an outline, level by level, of a campaign that goes from level 2 to level 10, a perfect followup to HS1.

If not Hammerfast, then Chaos Scar does provide a wealth of low-level adventures, all of manageable 3-4 encounters size. Once your party hits level 3, you may even be able to use level-1 adventures out of the box: 500 XP, a level-1 encounter for 5 PCs, is a level-3 encounter for 3 PCs. (DMG2 explicitly recommends using more monsters of lower level for small party sizes.)

My experience has also been that it's easier to convert 3e adventures to 4e for smaller party sizes. The typical published 4e adventure uses much larger combat maps and larger encounters, but scaling things down for 3 PCs brings you closer to the 3e encounter scale. This approach would still require some adaptation, I'm sure, but it could be a good chance to run any 3e adventures you've always wanted to run. So it could be worth it if enthusiasm for a particular adventure outweighs the conversion effort. I'll note that Rise of the Runelords even already has a fan-created 4e adaptation, although I disagree with the design decision to stretch it out to 30 levels by adding many more combats.

Good luck!
 
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I thought I was ok but there were too many fights, fortunately my crowd did not completely explore the dungeon.
However, the complaint I have heard are too many fights, not enough detail on the town and the NPCs poor hooks.

That pretty much summarizes most WotC adventures unfortunately, but lately they've been much better.

As for combat length, don't worry about it. With only three players the combats will be going fast, and if you cut the number of monsters down instead of halving hp, it'll be even faster.
 

Here is my input on several questions and topics raised in this thread.

Character Builder: I'm a DDI subscriber now, but I had Character Builder without DDI when I first started 4e earlier this year. As I recall, it had information from PHB1 and PHB2 plus Martial Power and I think Adventurer's Vault, but not Divine Power, Arcane Power, Martial Power 2, Primal Power or Adventurer's Vault 2 (and definitely not PHB3 since it hadn't been released at the time I first downloaded Character Builder). I don't know this for sure, but my guess is that WotC stopped updating the free version, so if you get it you can make SOME level 1-3 characters but not all of them, and you won't have all of the available options for them. For your group that's probably fine, but I think DDI is worth it - at least for one month so that you get all of the updates.

Skill Challenges: I strongly second the notion of NOT saying "You're in a skill challenge." You simply let the players know what's going on ("Okay, so you've been hired to find a stolen heirloom. What do you want to do now?") and leave it up to them to figure out a way to do what they're trying to do ("Um, I'll ask around in the tavern to see if anyone knows where I can find a fence." "All right, give me a Streetwise check..."). Also keep in mind that failing a skill challenge should mean that they still achieve their goal, but their lives are somehow harder now (lose a healing surge each, forced to pay a bribe to get the info they want, bad guys are alerted to their approach and bring reinforcements, etc.).

Keep on the Shadowfell: I'm running this for a campaign that's on a few-months hiatus at the moment, and the knock on it is that it's a little boring if your players like to do something other than kill bad guys. There's not much chance for roleplaying, not a ton of exploration - it's a pretty straightforward, nearly linear trip into a dungeon, fighting a room of monsters followed by another room of monsters... That's not to say that you can't mix it up to improve it (here's a cool take on a remixed version), but played strictly as written without much DM imagination, it's kind of dull for non-slayers.

Chaos Scar: I agree that these adventures are a good next step (requiring DDI, as mentioned), but if you run the Chaos Scar adventure called Stick in the Mud, please reconsider before using the Giant Frogs in the third encounter! A level 3 bad guy who can stun (save ends) is insane and no fun at all. The stunned player doesn't get to do ANYTHING until they make their save. Seriously, nothing. This is completely out of line with monsters that swallow in other sources, such as the Banderhobb Warder from MM3, where at least the character is allowed to fight the monster that has them swallowed. Sheesh, those stupid Giant Frogs.
 

One way to look at skill challenges is like they're just a session of role play or travel, exploration, etc. If in the past you'd have the players go around and do various things to achieve a goal and on the way they'd make this and that skill checks and you would just sort of eyeball it, then the new way is to just call that an SC and mark down a tally of how many checks they passed. Once they get enough then they've earned a reward and there's a plot point perhaps. People generally make the mistake of trying to add too much structure to their skill challenges and end up making them all about the dice. The dice really should be in the background. The SC should be about the action with the adding up success/fail on checks just being some book keeping the DM does. Once in a while you can run a really highly structured SC, they can be handy, but most will sort of just blend into the general flow of the game. It is definitely an acquired skill to use them well.
 

Unfortunately, I have (loosely) timed this from my previous attempts, because the combat lengths were bothering me. This will be a leisurely game with "family" - who have minimal/no experience with 4E, and without some sort of tweaking I'm expecting the combat time to match or exceed those I experienced with my normal gaming group. (I'd been half-way contemplating making 4E combat into a skill challenge, but that's a lot of work & testing).

Here is a thought, shave off hit points from the soldiers, roughly 5hp per level of the creature. Where I find 4E gets in trouble is with things that weaken, combined with incorporeal and regeneration... that's the 2 hour horror story of combats. I don't let those situations run up. I don't see many of those in Slaying Stone (except perhaps encounter 11, and I could argue that the particular problem in that encounter doesn't need to be:
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Either remove regeneration from the wererat, or since Triflik can attack him, he probably won't when hit anyhow. Or reduce it to 5 to shorten the fight up.

Another thought: Perhaps the party can work something out with the wererat and he will fight alongside the party, perhaps struggling to not attack the party. I could imagine you could dream up a skill challenge to keep him in the fight against the goblins and not attacking the party.
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Regardless, to scale to 3 you are going to need to shave levels of or drop creatures from encounters or the party will constantly be overpowered.
Actually, I wasn't aware HS2 was out yet...
HS2 starts at level 5, HS1 leaves off at level 2... you would need some filler. Chaos Scar will help a little but you will probably need to find something else or make up some adventures. I am also faced with that quandry at some point, and will probably do a combo of Chaos Scar and my own adventures. I haven't looked at the new Tiefling city book, but the dwarven one Hammarfast had lots of plot hooks to work with.

I'd be willing to try Chaos Scar or just about anything else, as long as it comes with a good recommendation.

Chaos Scar would need a DDI account, but then so does getting the character builder to build the classes you listed in your initial post. Why not buy just one month, download the CB and the Chaos Scar adventures you need, and then cancel. You can continue to use the CB after your subscription in cancelled and covers all the clasess and races available at that time. Granted it isn't free, but it's not a ton of money either.

As far as I have heard from reviews, it sounds like I would probably want to steer clear of the Scales of War series and H1-3 and P1-3. I've had first-hand knowledge of KotS (H1) - and my experience with that module drove me away from playing 4E the first time, so I am very guarded about which adventure I select to run.
Keep on the Shadowfell was the first published adventure for 4E. I think you will find Slaying Stone a better experience. I don't have many suggestions for you outside of that, sorry :(
 
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To encourage role-play, I highly recommend using skill challenges only as a framework and idea generator. Never announce the PCs are in one, and be very narrative in your descriptions and encourage them to decide what they want to do to resolve something, or how they want to approach an NPC.

For example, if the PCs need to convince a noble of something and there is an established skill challenge, I would read it and get a feel for the kinds of checks they suggest might sway the noble. But I would never announce to the players that they are in a skill challenge. I would encourage them to role-play their conversation with the noble and if the players come up with good ideas and make a convincing case, I may not call for any skill checks at all. I would run it totally old school style.

For combat, since there are only 3 PCs I would either reduce the number of monsters, or reduce their HPs. If you want to run all encounters as is, then reduce the number of HPs for all monsters by half. If you think about a balanced encounter with 5 monsters being designed under the assumption that they would face a party of 5 PCs, then you have to take several things into consideration. 3 PCs won't have the damage output that 5 PCs do. Cutting monster HPs in half should compensate for this. Also, monsters are able to focus fire a bit more effectively since there are less PCs for them to focus their attacks on. Boosting PC HPs should compensate for this, perhaps by as much as 50%. Likewise, if one PC is taken out by a condition that has a commensurately more dangerous effect on a party that has 3 PCs than one that has 5, so I would give a permanent minor +1 or +2 to PC saves as well.
 

Also, whenever a combat reaches the "grindy" stage, for example whenever the PCs outnumber the monsters two to one and the battle's result is a foregone conclusion but the monster still has a bag of HP to eat through, then I'll generally do a couple things. The remaining monster(s) flee, or I secretly minionize them and allow the next hits to take them out. However, if you are halving monster HPs then I don't think grind will be as much of a problem.
 

Also, whenever a combat reaches the "grindy" stage, for example whenever the PCs outnumber the monsters two to one and the battle's result is a foregone conclusion but the monster still has a bag of HP to eat through, then I'll generally do a couple things. The remaining monster(s) flee, or I secretly minionize them and allow the next hits to take them out. However, if you are halving monster HPs then I don't think grind will be as much of a problem.

It can also be worthwhile to have the players use Intimidate. It won't work if nobody has a decent skill bonus in it, but if you have a reasonably high CHA character in the party, like say the Halfling Rogue maybe, if they train Intimidate they'll have a reasonable chance of forcing bloodied monsters to surrender, if they can speak the same language. Its not EASY but when it works it cuts off the combat at a point where it was a foregone conclusion anyway, and it can give you some decent openings to do a bit of RP. Of course monsters can always decide to surrender anyway, or some of them may just have low morale and you can assign an easier DC to make them give up. This can also be handled with a little mini skill challenge.
 

I'm not willing (yet) to put in for a DDI account, until at least I know this is gonna fly. Can the character generator still be used to make 1st-3rd level characters for free?

Yes.

Though, really, DDI is a great way to get into the game for a bit and try it out. You get access to /everything/ that's been published for a month. You can say to heck with it after that month, and you still have Character Builder in case you ever want to make a character. You can come back to it monts later if you like.

I think my two biggest barriers are my issues with the length of combats (I don't like 2-hour long combats reminiscent of DDM tournaments) and problems I had getting the players (and sometimes myself) to RP, instead of just rush from one combat to the next. Any advice to help in either of these areas I'd appreciate

No offense, but these are both group issues. I was in a group for a while that also had both problems. Combats took two hours, players were unengaged durring RP, etc.

I just ran a game at a con and did 4 combats in 3 1/2 hours.

I'm in a new group that's doing plenty of RP.

You just need to pull together a group that fits your style and wants to get the same things out of the game that you do.
 

There seems to be some dislike for KoTS. Can anyone elaborate on the problems? I was considering running it after my current first-ever-foray-into-D&D campaign. Thanks!

The most basic and elemental one is that treasure levels are too low. Having played through almost all of the H1-H3 series, our party still have many of the big 3 slots with +1 gear or no gear in them. Our best item (at 9th level) is a +3 cloth armor: it's the only +3 item we have.
Now, that might sound like whinging, but 4e assumes that a certain level of treasure is propping up your defenses and attacks, and if you follow H1 to H3, then that assumption is going to be wrong, leading to more rests and slower play in general.

If you really want a comprehensive rundown on the issues, then see
Eleven Foot Pole: Keep On The Shadowfell

To be honest, it's not all that bad: most of it's actually plot and motivation stuff.
 

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