Savage Worlds: Question for Ari

[thatdarnedbob]

We are still talking about Savage Worlds, aren't we? Because the target number in Savage Worlds for everything, except melee attacks and damage, is always 4.

Sure, bonuses and penalties can shift the number you need on your dice, and maybe you actually want a Raise (or two, or more) for the particular instance you're rolling for, but the TN is 4.

Dude, you didn't read my post, did you? Go back, read it again, and then realize why your statement is silly.

Maybe you're in a Deadland, facing a critter with Terror (-4), and zero Grit. Your Guts TN is 4, with a -10 penalty.
Or maybe you're in a firefight, at long range (-4), with critical wounds (-3) and deadly dehydration (-2), in a pitch black cave (-6), but you saw his muzzle flash and at least know where to shoot at. The TN to hit your target is 4, though you do take a -15 on the shot.
Or maybe you're the best-looking, slickest-talking, best-connected, rich socialite in the Big Easy. You're trying to convince a local politician to do you and your friends a favor. The TN is 4, even though you have a +10 to the roll.

Yes, in particular instances, there is a small (2% or less) oddity in favor of a smaller die type. However, the basics of the system mean that bigger dice are better. Those particular exceptions are aberrations, not the commonly-encountered elements around which characters should be built and advanced.

If you wish to continue this discussion I'm willing to do so (though another thread is probably a good idea at this point).

Ok here's the big secret. I'm not arguing that smaller dice are always better. I'm not arguing that bonuses don't matter. All I am saying is that when you want the final result on the dice, after considering all modifiers, to be a number of the form 2(n+1) where n is greater than 1, you succeed more often rolling d2n than you do with d2(n+1). This is a mathematical fact. I have literally nothing else to talk about in another thread.

edit: Actually, I would have something to talk about, namely the interesting cases of critical failures, their value function, and the value/costs of spending Bennies. But it's been other people who have brought up those interesting points.

 

[TheClone]

Chances are, if you're rolling that d4 (which has a better chance to "explode"), you're also untrained and taking a -2 to your roll. Assuming the TN is 4 (the standard) or higher, even if you roll a 4, you still have to roll it again and get enough to beat the TN.

If you learn the skill on the basic level, you have a d4. Without a -2. It's untrained d4-2, then d4, d6 etc. So you are not necessarily untrained when rolling a d4.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Wow. I didn't mean for that to become a major point of contention. I was just bringing it up as something we'd observed as a possibility. It's certainly not nagging at me, or forming a major objection to the system, or anything.

 

[thatdarnedbob]

Wow. I didn't mean for that to become a major point of contention. I was just bringing it up as something we'd observed as a possibility. It's certainly not nagging at me, or forming a major objection to the system, or anything.

Agreed, for me the die size thing is a net neutral in regards to the system. I'd rather be talking about the death spiral, which is perverse. And so is the Benny mechanic, where Bennies are almost solely used to prevent death in combat situations, but the rules include guidelines for them on a per session basis instead of a per encounter basis. But on the other hand, I have the unholy duty to defend math against all comers, by virtue of my degree. Oh well.

 

[TheNovaLord]

we've played loads savage worlds.....roughly 50% of my gaming in the last 3 years since i discovered it.

i dont think we have ever had a discussion about the % of the dice / target numbers

sounds like a way to instantly kill any FFF

same as bennies. i think people where cautious with them at first, now they are mostly used to save face if you narrate something cool, and your dice decide they hate you! Burn through bennies till you succeed

 

[Ainamacar]

With all this talk of SW's steep death spiral, could someone give me a quick summary of its mechanics? I am officially curious.

 

[AngryMojo]

With all this talk of SW's steep death spiral, could someone give me a quick summary of its mechanics? I am officially curious.

http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/SWEX/TD06.pdf

Behold, test drive rules. I'm a huge fan of the system, and as far as I know, it's still going strong.

 

[TheClone]

With all this talk of SW's steep death spiral, could someone give me a quick summary of its mechanics? I am officially curious.

If you suffer damage above your robustness (that's at least the term used in the German books, it's half the constitution die + armor value + 2), you take a wound (or more for each raise). Each wound gives you -1 to every check. There is no check involved when taking damage, but you don't hit that good so your enemy lives longer and can do more damage. And that adds up. For every additional wound another -1 until you have -3. And for a system with dices usually in the range of d4 to d8 or maximum d12 -1 is quite a lot. But all systems that include penalties to rolls for getting injured have this problem (e.g. Shadowrun, at least editions 2 and 3).

 

[AngryMojo]

If you suffer damage above your robustness (that's at least the term used in the German books, it's half the constitution die + armor value + 2), you take a wound (or more for each raise). Each wound gives you -1 to every check. There is no check involved when taking damage, but you don't hit that good so your enemy lives longer and can do more damage. And that adds up. For every additional wound another -1 until you have -3. And for a system with dices usually in the range of d4 to d8 or maximum d12 -1 is quite a lot. But all systems that include penalties to rolls for getting injured have this problem (e.g. Shadowrun, at least editions 2 and 3).

It's also worth noting that a single edge, Hard to Kill, completely removes this problem.

 

[TheClone]

It's also worth noting that a single edge, Hard to Kill, completely removes this problem.

If there is irony in there, let me hand you a fire (or "flame") extinguisher.

If not: Yup and you could hand every character the talent for free or houserule that. But that includes you want to lose the fact that having wounds makes doing things more difficult. But having this idea in your rules will never be without having a death spiral, I guess.