Is Greyhawk Relevant?

[Philosopher]

Although my prediction for next year's campaign setting is that it will be appropriately named the Dungeons & Dragons Campaign Setting. *shrugs*

Why do you think that's what they'll be calling it? There's the Nentir Vale Gazetteer coming out next year, but I didn't think that this is the next campaign setting.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I have been playing near 20 years so have picked up things here and there, but nothing makes me want to explore the setting or it's history. I learned a bit converting the dragon AP's to a setting I liked. Some things stand out, Iggwilv,, the rain of colorless fire. But over all I found it Bland and boring. There is just nothing there that makes me want to go " I want to know more"

So yes for me the setting not relevant to in the lest.

Oh, dude -- this makes me think you are missing some of the best Greyhawk bits, many of which are short paragraphs or throwaway lines in the early AD&D modules and tournament adventures that hint at a much larger, deeper, and more magically mysterious world than is immediately apparent to the PCs.

It's the sort of hints offered in the introduction of Ghost Tower of Inverness, or in the timeline of Greyhawk history, that draw me in to the setting, thus:

Know you that in the elder days before the Invoked Devestation and the Rain of Colorless Fire, when the ancient peaks of the Abbor-Alz still thrust skyward sharp and majestic and the Flan tribesmen were but newcomers to the land, there existed between the Bright Desert and the mouth of the river Selintan a great fortress called Inverness . . . Know you also that here was said to dwell the great wizard Galap-Dreidel at the height of his power and glory, and that he did lift the Castle Inverness from the very foundation of rock upon which it rested ...

 

[Dragonhelm]

Why do you think that's what they'll be calling it? There's the Nentir Vale Gazetteer coming out next year, but I didn't think that this is the next campaign setting.

Last year, when we were wondering what this year's setting would be, they re-released Dark Sun's Prism Pentad series.

Now, they're releasing the D&D brand of novels. If they hold to the same pattern, then they would go with a D&D brand setting. Likewise, using the D&D name for a setting would draw in sales and solidify the implied setting into an actual one.

Might be a topic for another thread. Although this time tomorrow, we should know for sure.

 

[Philosopher]

Last year, when we were wondering what this year's setting would be, they re-released Dark Sun's Prism Pentad series.

Now, they're releasing the D&D brand of novels. If they hold to the same pattern, then they would go with a D&D brand setting. Likewise, using the D&D name for a setting would draw in sales and solidify the implied setting into an actual one.

Might be a topic for another thread. Although this time tomorrow, we should know for sure.

Now that you mention it, I've noticed (and I'm sure you have too) that the DL and FR novels now have the D&D logo featured prominently on the cover, while the campaign setting logos are only on the spine. They seem to be wanting to give the D&D brand itself the central focus, so calling the new setting the "Dungeons & Dragons Campaign Setting" is a possibility.

 

[TikkchikFenTikktikk]

Is Greyhawk still relevant to the modern gamer?

No, because the modern gamer barely has the imagination to play a pen-and-paper role-playing game. They certainly do not have what it takes to play in Greyhawk.

A few posts have called Greyhawk gonzo. That is incorrect, but only because gonzo doesn't mean what you think it means. Your heart is in the right place.

Someone finally quoted Our Father's introduction to the original rules. But then everyone, including the quoter, took the wrong lessons.

Let me get Socratic and ask a question: Has anyone in this thread actually read the works Our Father mentioned?

Let me help you:
[sblock]
Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser in Lankhmar:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-1-Swords-Deviltry/dp/1595820795/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 1: Swords And Deviltry (9781595820792): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-Swords-Against-Adventures/dp/1595820760/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 2: Swords Against Death (The Adventures of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser) (Bk. 2) (9781595820761): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-Swords-Mist-Bk/dp/1595820817/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 3: Swords in the Mist (Bk. 3) (9781595820815): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-4-Swords-Against-Wizardry/dp/1595820787/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Volume 4: Swords Against Wizardry (9781595820785): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-5-Swords/dp/1595820825/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 5: The Swords of Lankhmar (9781595820822): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-Swords-Ice-Magic/dp/1595820809/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 6: Swords and Ice Magic (Bk. 6) (9781595820808): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-Knight-Swords-Fafhrd/dp/1595820752/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 7: The Knight and Knave of Swords (The Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser Saga of Fritz Leiber) (9781595820754): Fritz Leiber: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Lankhmar-Book-Swords-Against-Shadowland/dp/1595820779/]Amazon.com: Lankhmar Book 8: Swords Against the Shadowland…[/ame]

Robert E. Howard's Conan saga:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Conan-Cimmerian-Original-Adventures/dp/0345461517/]Amazon.com: The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian: The Original Adventures of the Greatest Sword and Sorcery Hero of All Time! (9780345461513): Robert E. Howard: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Bloody-Crown-Conan-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345461525/]Amazon.com: The Bloody Crown of Conan (Conan of Cimmeria, Book 2) (9780345461520): Robert E. Howard: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Sword-Conan-Cimmeria-Book/dp/0345461533/]Amazon.com: The Conquering Sword of Conan (Conan of Cimmeria, Book 3) (9780345461537): Robert E. Howard: Books[/ame]

Edgar Rice Burroughs's Martian adventures of John Carter:
All are available in the public domain someplace on Earth except for the final novel _John Carter of Mars_:
Barsoom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
However, I recommend tracking down the Ballantine paperbacks for Michael Whelan's delicious cover art:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Princess-Mars-Edgar-Rice-Burroughs/dp/0345331389/]Amazon.com: A Princess of Mars (9780345331380): Edgar Rice Burroughs: Books[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Mars-Martian-Tales/dp/0345324390/]Amazon.com: The Gods of Mars - Martian Tales #2 (9780345324399):…[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Warlord-Mars-Edgar-Rice-Burroughs/dp/0345324536/]Amazon.com: Warlord of Mars (9780345324535): Edgar Rice Burroughs: Books[/ame]
etc.

The L. Sprague de Camp & Fletcher Pratt fantasies:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Magic-L-Sprague-Camp/dp/1886778655/]Amazon.com: The Mathematics of Magic (L. Sprague De Camp) (9781886778658): L. Sprague de Camp; Fletcher Pratt, Mark L. Olson, Marc Fishman: Books[/ame]

I'll add one more that wasn't mentioned but almost certainly influenced Our Father:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Once-Future-Terence-Hanbury-White/dp/0441627404/]Amazon.com: The Once and Future King (9780441627400): Terence…[/ame]
[/sblock]

What lessons can we learn from reading all of this?

In my humble opinion, there are two essential lessons to be learned from these stories and applied to the question of whether Greyhawk is relevant to the modern gamer:

1. Heroes in these stories may attempt anything.
* John Carter literally wills himself from a civil war battlefield to Mars and back.
* Fafhrd has a star-crossed affair with a ghoul, amongst other absurdity.
* Conan.
2. The setting and scene are subject to the whims of the narrator.
* Despite the heroes knowing magic, in the de Camp/Pratt stories the heroes still can fail.
* This is fiction and fantasy; the author can write whatever the he wants to write.
* Having flying cars, energy weapons, swords, sexy princesses and heroes, thri-kreen (yep totally ripped off from Burroughs between WWI and WWII), creatures that have almost evolved into brains that just think eternally, and generally a zoo of bizarre lifeforms and a Nevada gun store of technology makes things more awesome, not less.

If anything, the core mechanic of 4th Edition is the **perfect** abstraction to make such a setting relevant again. Players can try to do anything; just roll a d20. The DM may do whatever he wishes to the setting, verisimilitude be damned; just add and subtract modifiers and set DCs as you wish.

What issue of The Sandman is it? Morpheus is in hell attempting to regain his helm, but must challenge the demon who possesses it to a game of Reality.

"I am a dire wolf, prey-stalking and lethal-prowler"
"I am a hunter, horse-mounted and wolf-stabbing"
"I am a horsefly, horse-stinging and hunter-throwing"
"I am a spider, fly-consuming and eight-legged"
etc.

Later in the series it is called "the oldest game".

Others in this thread have done a thorough job explaining why non-Greyhawk settings cannot serve such a game. But, as exemplified by the apotheosis of the setting, Castle Greyhawk, anything can happen on Oerth. Because more than in any other module or source book, Castle Greyhawk demonstrates that heroes can try anything and the setting is clearly subject to the whims of the narrator. It is a tautology, but because of this Greyhawk is the most "D&D-ish" it is the best of any setting.

Modern gamers rarely have the imagination to actually attempt **anything**. Modern gamers rarely have the imagination to have whims with which they can subjugate the setting and scene.

So, QED. Greyhawk has no relevance to modern gamers.

 

[Hungry Like The Wolf]

I haven't been playing as long as some people and I don't really have a great knowledge of DnD like others in this thread but I guess I fit the bill for a modern gamer. I've always played in Greyhawk every since my first game which was in Living Greyhawk. My current 4E campaign is in Greyhawk.

So either my friends and I are the exception to the rule or Greyhawk is still very relevant.

 

[Argyle King]

Second thoughts...


In contrast to what I said earlier, if I worked for WoTC, I would want to release Greyhawk as a setting. After reading what others have posted, I 100% agree that Greyhawk is more than nostalgia, but, even if it is, so is the Red Box. This has some value that can be used in a very positive way.

Red Box and Greyhawk are part of what D&D was at the beginning; 4E (from my understanding) is intended to reach out to a new audience. I also have heard that many older gamers have used 4E to teach their kids to play because of the more simple rules. As such, I feel that it would be a great idea for WoTC to release a new Greyhawk and use it to bridge the gap between generations. For a lack of better words, help those older gamers pass the torch onto their kids and a new generation of gamers by using a product to connect them.

 

[Jhaelen]

Is Greyhawk still relevant to the modern gamer?

No, because the modern gamer barely has the imagination to play a pen-and-paper role-playing game. They certainly do not have what it takes to play in Greyhawk.

Sometimes I wish for a way to give negative xp.

 

[Klaus]

Is Greyhawk still relevant to the modern gamer?

No, because the modern gamer barely has the imagination to play a pen-and-paper role-playing game. They certainly do not have what it takes to play in Greyhawk.

Let me share with you something I learned as an artist:

The larger your brush is, the less accurate your painting will be.

 

[Mallus]

A few posts have called Greyhawk gonzo.

Because it is. Unless you think the word "gonzo" is reserved for stories about men who drive around with a trunk full of amphetamines, booze, and ether. Or for Muppet names.

"I am a dire wolf, prey-stalking and lethal-prowler"

I am Mallus's complete lack of agreement. Possibly comprehension.

Modern gamers rarely have the imagination to actually attempt **anything**

Maybe you should find a new group of modern gamers to game with? In the mean time, poke around here some more. There's a hell of a lot of imagination on display at ENWorld. You could start w/the Story Hours.