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The issue with wizards and sorcerers

Pathfinder goes a long way toward fixing the fighter, by beefing up his abilities, and weakening competitive abilities, like wildshape, animal companions, summon monsters, and so forth.

i attempted a semi-fix of the fighter at my blog here:
smallredtable: the fighter

it's not really going to change anyone's core beliefs on the inherent flaws of the fighter, but i felt it was a fun little project that actually had people taking fighters as cohorts. ok, fighter levels in cohorts. oh, it also made fighter now a "2, 4 OR 6" level class, so i consider it a success ;)
 

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I do have a question for Dandu. PCs in any of the games I've ever played in have only ever used Planar Binding spells VERY sparingly. And usually things end up bad.

How do you use Planar Binding in combat? It takes 10 minutes to cast. First they get a save, then they get a couple of different ways to try and escape the magic circle. Then you have to beat them with a charisma check, or bribe them with a DM determined something, which can be ugly for anything other than sorcerers. In the case of making a critter use divination magic, you have to worry about them out and out lying to you, or 'misinterpreting' the message, on top of the already present chance of divinations failing. Then you have to deal with the possibility of retaliation, or whatever you summoned getting his powerful outsider buddies to pay you a visit. Especially if you are doing it regularly.

Is there an assumption that the mage and his party should just hunker down around a calling circle in their house? Then cast the spell over and over again, possibly killing several escaped creatures until something fails its save? I've never had a DM that would let that happen on an even remotely occasional basis.

*edit*
I see that using the magic circle reduces the chances it will break free, and makes the charisma check harder. But also requires another 10+ minutes casting time, plus use of a dimensional anchor, plus the silver spell component. The part where the circle is easily broken though would worry me...I've watched Supernatural, lol. Oh look...the leaves I happened to have in my pocket accidentally blew onto the glyph. Oops!

Also...do divination spells even work if used by a creature trapped by the circle? Since their spells specifically can't go beyond the circle? How do you contact another plane when you can't even contact the space 10 feet away.
 
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You're missing the point. The Wizard can actually do something with those three months in winter where adventuring really isn't anybody's idea of a good time. He can us those long evenings around the campfire and those afternoons in the tavern for increasing his power. Can the fighter say the same?
Also, getting a called creature to do your bidding is trivial. You can employ a multitude of buffs to yourself and debuffs to Mr. Demon to increase your chances of making that Cha check on the first try.
 

You're missing the point. The Wizard can actually do something with those three months in winter where adventuring really isn't anybody's idea of a good time. He can us those long evenings around the campfire and those afternoons in the tavern for increasing his power. Can the fighter say the same?
Also, getting a called creature to do your bidding is trivial. You can employ a multitude of buffs to yourself and debuffs to Mr. Demon to increase your chances of making that Cha check on the first try.

No, I think you're missing the point: that can only happen, if the DM lets it happen. IOW, if the DM is a push over, yes the spellcasters will roll all over the rest of the players. Planar binding is one of those spells that many DM's will actually have house rules for. Basing the power of the spell on the CR of the creature, instead of its HD, is rather common. Then there is the arbitrary value assigned by the DM according to the value of the bribes offered, for instance. Teh availability of all those buffs, and the question of whether they re allowed to stack. The rôle of the DM is to challenge all the players, so fun is had by all, not lie down flat in front of the wizard-player and get stepped on, because the player waves some esoteric supplement from over the other side of the gaming table.

Actually, in game, it is my experience that the spellcasters excel best, when they support the meat shields. Supporting them, means less threats get through to actually threaten the spellcasters.

I've seen games where the spellcasters try to play egomaniac, and it just doesn't go well: 1) the meat shields go down quickly 2) the cleric is finally buffed up wades into melee: gets debuffed, starts to panic 3) wizard flees, perhaps grabbing the rogue on his way out.

We've had few free-for-all Death Matches on ENWorld. A low level one was won by a human cleric playing ultra-defense: Eventually the wizard types run out of fly and invisibility and have finished nuking everything they can. A mid level game (10th-12?) one was won by a Rat-man from OA (Nezumi(?)) fighter using an Anti-Magic Shield. When the field was filled with 11+ other Level-equivalent PCs as potential threats, it wasn't so easy for the spellcasters.

A depleted wizard is just a glorified peasant with a crossbow.

Yes, a ready for-the-day wizard is more powerful than the fighter by far. Yet clever tactics, proper equipment, and careful timing can improve the odds (slightly, at least).
 


... that many DM's will actually have house rules for...

We've had few free-for-all Death Matches on ENWorld. A low level one was won by a human cleric playing ultra-defense: Eventually the wizard types run out of fly and invisibility and have finished nuking everything they can. A mid level game (10th-12?) one was won by a Rat-man from OA (Nezumi(?)) fighter using an Anti-Magic Shield. When the field was filled with 11+ other Level-equivalent PCs as potential threats, it wasn't so easy for the spellcasters.

...

It is broken if you need a house rule.

Can you please give me a link to those death matches?
 

It is broken if you need a house rule.

Can you please give me a link to those death matches?

Discussion about Game of Death

2nd game of Death site, run by MacBrea, no longer available, but the comments are still available here

Most of the original mapping sites and so are long gone. In general, these things took far too long to adjudicate (DM-ing them was hell) and even participation: they required basically 6 months or more: each round took more than a week to get through, with players disappearing, not answering emails, trying to ignore stated rules / guidelines for character creation, correcting misunderstandings, etc.
 

just to point out I'm not arguing with you guys i was simply getting info on optimised spellcasters and why thier so great compared to melee characters. Dadu I asked about dispel magic because i've never herd of binding before and ni idea who it works. Spellcasters are very diffrent in my game and the comment about a tatic savvy dm and newbie caster players is proberly accurate.

This is the crux of your comparison.

It depends on the game(s) you are using for comparison.

In a game where magic users are rare or are "different" (some games are low magic and put limitations on spellcasters) makes for a bad comparison to core.

In core rules a wizard is relatively weak at lower levels but around lvl 5+ they start to kick butt (would be better except for their limited number of spells/day of the 3+ level spells) and by the mid-teens they start to dominate.

This is pretty much the way D&D has played out since the beginning - low level wizards weak high level wizards rock.
 

I do have a question for Dandu. PCs in any of the games I've ever played in have only ever used Planar Binding spells VERY sparingly. And usually things end up bad.
That's why I tend to bind Good characters. They tend to backstab you less than Evil ones.
How do you use Planar Binding in combat? It takes 10 minutes to cast.
Why in the Nine Hells of Baator would you assume that I cast it in combat? Given that the called creature can stay for a very long period of time, it makes the most sense to cast it in out of combat beforehand.

Either that or lock up your enemy in a Resilient Sphere first. That should last long enough.

First they get a save, then they get a couple of different ways to try and escape the magic circle. Then you have to beat them with a charisma check, or bribe them with a DM determined something, which can be ugly for anything other than sorcerers.
How fortunate that a sorcerer, who Binds creatures beforehand, has enough time to try until something fails the save and negotiate.

A wizard could do it too with a casting of Eagle's Splendor and a Circlet of Charisma.
In the case of making a critter use divination magic, you have to worry about them out and out lying to you, or 'misinterpreting' the message, on top of the already present chance of divinations failing.
There are several ways of doing this. The agreement could ask the Imp or Quasit to relate to you literally what was said, in which case they would be compelled to follow if you word it right. You can have someone standing by with a high Sense Motive check like the party rogue or bard. You can Diplomacy or Intimidate the bugger into relaying things truthfully. You can Charm, Dominate, Zone of Truth, or whatever the creature to ensure it does not lie.

The list can go on.

Then you have to deal with the possibility of retaliation, or whatever you summoned getting his powerful outsider buddies to pay you a visit. Especially if you are doing it regularly.
Oh yes, because Imps and Quasits regularly have the ear of powerful Balors and whatnot...

Part of my MO for binding things is to either bind weak evil creatures that are really unlikely to have powerful allies, or bind Good creatures that I can work out an agreement with since we are on the same side and are likely to support each other's efforts at promoting good in the world. After all, one of the defining aspects of the Good alignment is that good people work together, unlike Evil creatures which have a tendency to backstab and betray each other for selfish goals.

"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
Good creatures, if you explain your reason for calling them well and politely, are also less likely to attack you than evil creatures if they escape.

Ideally, I would bind someone that I had established relationships beforehand, since by the time I get Planar Binding, I'll have gone on at least one planar adventure. If not, there's the fact that I try to establish relations with churches of Good deities, and I can ask them to help recommend an ally.

Is there an assumption that the mage and his party should just hunker down around a calling circle in their house? Then cast the spell over and over again, possibly killing several escaped creatures until something fails its save? I've never had a DM that would let that happen on an even remotely occasional basis.
That you do not have DMs which allow this is proof that Planar Binding is overpowered as written. If we accept that no sane DM would allow Planar Binding abuse (or other broken spells) by houserules, we still get a situation where spellcasters can cover several roles in the party; damage, control, buffing, debuffing, and utility.

If we're going with what a "reasonable" DM would allow, replace Magic Circle with Haste, Dimension Anchor with Arcane Eye, and Planar Binding with Contingency. You still get a character that's more powerful and versatile than someone who is mostly restricted to hitting something with a sharp stick.

I see that using the magic circle reduces the chances it will break free, and makes the charisma check harder. But also requires another 10+ minutes casting time, plus use of a dimensional anchor, plus the silver spell component.
Look closely. I also have Dimension Anchor in my list of spells known. Also, note the material component reads:
Arcane Material Component

A little powdered silver with which you trace a 3-foot diameter circle on the floor (or ground) around the creature to be warded.
No cost listed. The silver is to insignificant to drain your coffers.

The part where the circle is easily broken though would worry me...I've watched Supernatural, lol. Oh look...the leaves I happened to have in my pocket accidentally blew onto the glyph. Oops!
That is why my sorceresses perform the Planar Binding in a closed room while naked.

Also...do divination spells even work if used by a creature trapped by the circle? Since their spells specifically can't go beyond the circle? How do you contact another plane when you can't even contact the space 10 feet away.
That seems to be the exact opposite of what the Magic Circle spell says.

The creature cannot reach across the magic circle, but its ranged attacks (ranged weapons, spells, magical abilities, and the like) can.
 
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It is up to the DM and the other players, what they are doing with their off time while the wizard / sorcerer is running around planar binding half the universe.

There is nothing preventing them from using their wealth and experience to garner the goodwill of other temporal forces. Forces that may be just as influential to any unfolding plot.

But it is far more likely that they choose to spend it swilling onion-water in the company of some peasant dirt farmer.
 

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