D&D 4E Gave up 4E would essentialls win us back?

[Elodan]

We played 4E for about a year before the group decided it wasn't for us. While we liked a lot of what 4E offered, the group gave it up as we felt the classes and powers played too similar and combats became too predictable (you knew who was going to win well before the combat ended).

The previews of the essentials classes peaked our interest. I figured I'd ask the 4E experts here if the essentials line changes would make it worth giving another shot. If so, which products would be best to start with.

Please don't chime in just tell us how we're wrong in what we thought, it's the conclusion the group as a whole made.

Thanks.

 

[Klaus]

From the previews (and even earlier, when the Psionic classes started playing with the class structure), yes, it seems the Essentials classes play differently from each other (with clerics and wizards being still mostly what we're used to in 4e).

As for knowing beforehand who's going to win: embrace that! Once it becomes clear who is going to win, the losing side should break ranks and flee. This allows you to move the adventure along, and maybe even have more combats in a single session (if that's your thing).

If you plan of trying out Essentials, you need the Rules Compendium, the Heroes of the _______ books (Fallen Lands are out, Forgotten Kingdoms are upcoming), the DM's Kit (upcoming) and at least one monster book (Monster Vault is upcoming, but earlier books are still useable).

 

[Harlekin]

We played 4E for about a year before the group decided it wasn't for us. While we liked a lot of what 4E offered, the group gave it up as we felt the classes and powers played too similar and combats became too predictable (you knew who was going to win well before the combat ended).

The previews of the essentials classes peaked our interest. I figured I'd ask the 4E experts here if the essentials line changes would make it worth giving another shot. If so, which products would be best to start with.

Please don't chime in just tell us how we're wrong in what we thought, it's the conclusion the group as a whole made.

Thanks.

While I don't agree that classes play very similar, essentials character look less similar than classic classes and also play even less similar. So your first concern may be addressed by essentials.

 

[Kobold Boots]

I'd say try essentials as a one off three or four session experiment.

No opinion on these forums provided by anyone not in your group is going to give you a firm answer you can hang your hat on. To be honest, when I first heard of essentials, I was really rather annoyed at WoTC and considered ditching D&D completely because I want a course chosen to remain straight for longer than a couple years. I've since relented because that response was silly and illogical.

What I can speak of is my own group. I've been running 4e since March 2010. Like many others I have one player who hates 4e and depending on his greater mood, his feelings along the hate paradigm vary from eh, I'll keep on truckin' to "no I hate this."

I bought essentials to attempt to help him enjoy the game. I care about my friends' enjoyment. Truth is though that 3.5 D&D is no longer supported, it's not coming back and while I do expect that newer products will attempt to capture the magic of earlier editions, the damage caused by WoTC stating "sorry our bad, lets pretend 4 didn't exist" will be severe.

There are plenty who like 4e. People who decide not to like 4e need to play other games or adapt/grow up as appropriate. The "will something win us back" threads and the "edition wars" threads need to be stopped. They're annoying to many of us.

No offense to the OP though, fair question to ask and likely that he or she is not as annoyed as I am with the continual blight spell cast on the 4e forum.

Thanks,
KB

 

[Samurai]

We played 4E for about a year before the group decided it wasn't for us. While we liked a lot of what 4E offered, the group gave it up as we felt the classes and powers played too similar and combats became too predictable (you knew who was going to win well before the combat ended).

The previews of the essentials classes peaked our interest. I figured I'd ask the 4E experts here if the essentials line changes would make it worth giving another shot. If so, which products would be best to start with.

Please don't chime in just tell us how we're wrong in what we thought, it's the conclusion the group as a whole made.

Thanks.

I would say both of those issues have been improved lately. The classes are not all the same now, as the martial class don't have daily powers in Essentials and tend to rely upon basic attacks modified by stances (for fighters) or tricks (for rogues). Clerics now have domain spells too.

As for combat, damage has been increased and hit points and defenses decreased, meaning the chance of a few lucky blows can turn things around much faster, and combats don't tend to drag on for as long. Monster Manuel 3 and the upcoming Monster Vault are fully into this new monster math and design, while MM2 is part of the way there. There is a set of guidelines for building your own creatures and updating the ones from MM1.

Whether things have changed enough for you, only you can decide that, but 4e hasn't been stagnant.

 

[Shin Okada]

It will depend on a lot of factors and your prejudice.

First of all, on what point you felt "the classes and powers played too similar"? Just because all the classes have almost all numbers of at-wills, encounters and dailies? Or because of any other reasons?

Frankly speaking, playing 4e for 2+ years, I don't feel the same as your friends feel. All the classes, even of the same role, played really differently. More so than, say, similar classes or builds in pre-4e D&D or many of other RPGs. So without knowing what did make you feel so, I cannot say if Essentials solves your problem or not.

 

[Tony Vargas]

We played 4E for about a year before the group decided it wasn't for us. While we liked a lot of what 4E offered, the group gave it up as we felt the classes and powers played too similar and combats became too predictable (you knew who was going to win well before the combat ended).

Essentials addresses the former concern. Classes that were formerly balanced at a fundamental mechanical level are now mechanically distinct - the melee types are back on the reservation, though it remains to be seen of the primacy of casters at higher levels has been restored, they do get a couple of their old tricks back at low level. It's particularly clear with the Fighter. Where the 4e Fighter was almost caster-like in having to husband daily and varied encounter spells ('exploits'), the two Essentials builds play more like traditional Fighters - you hit things, maybe you occassionally hit them particularly hard or put a little english on 'em. Specifically the 'Slayer' build plays a lot like an AD&D fighter, while the 'Knight' build plays a bit like a 3e fighter. In both cases, it's more a similarity of 'feel' than of mechanics, but if you missed having fighters like that around, it could be a nice change.


The latter concern, not so much. Encounters in Essentials are balanced essentially (npi) like they were in 4e, PC victory is pretty nearly a foregone conclusion. Prior to Essentials, the MM3 introduced monsters that did more damage on average, which might make combats a bit quicker and more exciting, but probably won't much change the feel that bothered you.

The previews of the essentials classes peaked our interest. I figured I'd ask the 4E experts here if the essentials line changes would make it worth giving another shot. If so, which products would be best to start with.

Since you're already familiar with the game, there's no need to start with the Red Box, the underlying resolution systems are little changed. I'd suggest you pick up Heroes of the Fallen Land (ony 20 bucks) and see how the classes look to you - classes are probably the most significant change. If it looks good, you might pick up the MM3 or wait for the Essentials monster book ('Vault?') and try a few combats to see if the changes to classes and monsters add up to something you like.

Hope you like it, WotC has alienated a few loyal 4e fans in the hopes of getting you back, it'd be a shame if you didn't at least give it a try. If you don't want to invest in a book, you could just drop in to a D&D Encounters event. An hour or two on a Wed night. Just be sure to get a table where they're /just/ using Essentials builds (officially it's Essentials only but some DMs make exceptions).

 

[Gundark]

essentials is getting me to take another look at 4e. I do think that your first concern has been addressed. With what little essentials play I've seen the martial characters do play different. The cleric also feels different from the wizard.

 

[Gradine]

I dunno, I've never felt that a universal resource system ever meant universal play experience between classes. If you and your players felt that different classes played too similarly I don't know if differences in resource management presented in Essentials will change that much. Yeah, they brought back the "I hit it until it's not a problem anymore" Fighter, but that's really about it. Classes played differently primarily due to roles and how each class went about performing its role. If that wasn't enough for your players in the first place, I doubt that will change now.

Meanwhile, creating shorter, more challenging encounters is all on the DM. There are plenty of tools out there now to help this problem, though "the bad guys run away" is always an oldie but a goodie.

Obviously, you'll never know until you give it a try. If you think it's worth the time and the money, give it a try. And do keep an open mind. But it sounds like the problems your group had we not the problems addressed by Essentials.

 

[UHF]

We played 4E for about a year before the group decided it wasn't for us. While we liked a lot of what 4E offered, the group gave it up as we felt the classes and powers played too similar and combats became too predictable (you knew who was going to win well before the combat ended).

The previews of the essentials classes peaked our interest. I figured I'd ask the 4E experts here if the essentials line changes would make it worth giving another shot. If so, which products would be best to start with.

Please don't chime in just tell us how we're wrong in what we thought, it's the conclusion the group as a whole made.

Thanks.

No.

Its still very 4e. They still play in a very balanced fashion, which you had a problem with. Although they 'play' like AD&D characters.