D&D 4E Is Pathfinder Combat As Slow as 4e?

[The_Gneech]

Um ... right.

Well. Pathfinder combats, yes, probably faster than 4E, but system mastery makes a big difference either way.

Both are slower than 1e.

And 1e is slower than Tunnels and Trolls, but probably easier to find adventures for.

-The Gneech

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Heh, how abut just saying they are differently slow?

Now, I will admit to not playing 4e, though I have definitely heard griping about the grind, but I have had a complex battle in low level Pathfinder take several hours. (Water filled quarry, Hag, Merrows, and a paladin having to take off his armor after combat began.) Mind you, I have heard the players telling stories about that battle, so, long or not, they had a good time. But it did take a long time, because the hardest hitters couldn't make it into the water early on. Once the paladin (now nekkid) could wade in and start Smiting the Hag things sped up considerably.

The Auld Grump

 

[Celtavian]

re

I was never concerned about combat speed myself. GURPS combats are super slow, but their combat system is awesome. I would play in a GURPS campaign in a heartbeat.

I don't like 4E combat because of the lack of realism and the lack options not defined by a power. Pathfinder is pretty far off the realism chart for combat, especially ranged combat in Pathfinder with archer machinegunners, but 4E makes Pathfinder seem like a documentary about warfare compared to a cartoon. 4E went way too far away from realistic combat simulation for my tastes. They didn't even try to make combat seem somewhat realistic. At least Pathfinder and 3E tried to model combat off somewhat of what you might be able to do in real life by creating fighting styles with some limitations versus powers that work regardless of the realism involved.

 

[Festivus]

I was never concerned about combat speed myself. GURPS combats are super slow, but their combat system is awesome. I would play in a GURPS campaign in a heartbeat.

I don't like 4E combat because of the lack of realism and the lack options not defined by a power. Pathfinder is pretty far off the realism chart for combat, especially ranged combat in Pathfinder with archer machinegunners, but 4E makes Pathfinder seem like a documentary about warfare compared to a cartoon. 4E went way too far away from realistic combat simulation for my tastes. They didn't even try to make combat seem somewhat realistic. At least Pathfinder and 3E tried to model combat off somewhat of what you might be able to do in real life by creating fighting styles with some limitations versus powers that work regardless of the realism involved.

Personally, I don't want realism in a fantasy game with spells and dragons. I want the archer to be able to bank a shot off one bad buy into another or shoot 4 arrows at once or magically turn his arrows into ice bolts.... it's heroic! This is what I want when I play:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj2VU_8l6gs]YouTube - Futurama - Bender´s Game Sneak Peek[/ame]

If I wanted realism there are a pile of other games at the store for that.

 

[darjr]

I find that in Pathfinder it is much easier to dispense with the battle mat and do combat much more like I would in 1e. That alone makes combats go faster. Doing the same in 4e was more effort than it was worth. I always ended up drawing maps anyway.

 

[Mark Chance]

I find that in Pathfinder it is much easier to dispense with the battle mat and do combat much more like I would in 1e. That alone makes combats go faster. Doing the same in 4e was more effort than it was worth. I always ended up drawing maps anyway.

I can't say about 4E and battlemats, but I do find it easier to handwave the mat with some encounters in PF. I've also sped up PF by "chunking" initiatives.

IOW, most monsters go on the same initiative count, and we roll initiative each round. I roll for the monsters; the players roll for their PCs. I say, for example, "The monsters go on 14. Everyone above 14, go now." Then, the monsters go, and then anyone who had a lower initiative goes. Works like a charm.

I've also run PF both with and without AoO, and I found it moves more quickly without them. Nixing AoO is my preferred playstyle, but most of my players enjoy the more tactical nature of AoO, so we're currently using them.

 

[darjr]

Party initiative helps out both games. I prefer it if the players are willing. Though I think it has an even bigger bang in 4e. I'm not sure why.

In both cases everything that party initiative does can be done with individual initiative, with just more bookkeeping, no more so in 4e than in PF, I think, but in 4e it seems that players can get more of an advantage.

 

[kitsune9]

I've been interested in trying out Pathfinder. I'm experienced with fast combat games like 0e and 1e D&D, Savage Worlds, etc.

This post gave me pause though:
Destination Unknown: I broke up with 4e this morning.

I tried 4e once at a D&D gameday. Combat took 40 minutes for one encounter and seemed to me to be monotonous. Maybe it was because I was a newbie and had to be couched on what to do? In any case, I am wondering if combat in Pathfinder is about the same as 4e, or if it is somehow different, somehow faster or more interesting.

Thoughts?

-- Dwilimir

HI Dwilimir,

If you've played 3.x, you'll find the length of combats in Pathfinder pretty much the same. In my experience, I haven't seen them sped up nor was there any real presentation to make combats go faster. So, if there was a complaint that combat was too slow in 3.x, I think you'll find it here in this system as well.

Can't offer a comparison though to 4e though because I've never played it (though I do own both the English and Chinese language versions of the core rulebooks ), but it looks like the other posters here have some comparisons going on so you'll be able to make your judgement then.

Welcome!

 

[Celtavian]

Personally, I don't want realism in a fantasy game with spells and dragons. I want the archer to be able to bank a shot off one bad buy into another or shoot 4 arrows at once or magically turn his arrows into ice bolts.... it's heroic! This is what I want when I play:

YouTube - Futurama - Bender´s Game Sneak Peek

If I wanted realism there are a pile of other games at the store for that.

I don't want perfect realism either. Otherwise I probably wouldn't even like Pathfinder. So that's probably not the best description, but Pathfinder and 3E did try to provide rules for simulating combat actions that anyone should be able to take in the real world. Which was a step in the right direction for mechanical design.

More of what I want is for abilities to make sense and work within the confines of the fantasy material I've read. I don't want balance concerns overly involved in game design. I want faithful adherence to the fantasy material I grew up enjoying to be the primary material by which game design is made.

In every edition of D&D I've ever loved, I always felt the game designers were inspired by fantasy books and movies and history. It was incorporated in a fantastical, heroic, and unique fashion. But you still felt like they were building mechanics creatively and drawing from the fantastical sources that inspired a generation of fantasy lovers to play a game that simulated all those great books and movies they read and watched and incorporated the elements of history those of us who love the ancient world enjoyed reading about like wearing armor, fighting with ancient weapons in the manner they fought, and the like.

New game designers seem more inspired by MMORPGs and anime. That may suit what players like you are looking for because your inspiration for fantasy gaming may be far different from my inspiration. When I was growing up there were no MMORPGs, fantasy video games were in their infancy and nowhere near what they are now, and anime was Starblazers. I think that is part of what separates the older generation from the newer generation of D&D enthusiasts.

All my fantasy inspiration comes from Arthurian Legend, Lord of the Rings, all the strange fantasy and horror books made by Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, H.P. Lovecraft, and the plethora of fantasy authors of that time and prior, and reading history books about ancient Rome, Europe, and Japan with knightly full plate and chain armor, simple sword play and battle without a lot of bells and whistles, and some martial arts worked in along with all the legendary trappings and myth surrounding the history of those areas.

I felt like the D&D game designers up to 3rd edition were similarly inspired. 3.5 and now Pathfinder incorporated mechanical advances inspired by other games like skills and feats. That I liked because the fluff material inspiration was still the same even though the mechanics were advanced. That is what I like about Pathfinder.

James Jacobs and Erik Mona and their crew still seem like they draw inspiration from fantasy books and movies and couple it with a desire to advance the game mechanics to provide more options and verisimilitude to combat as well as make the game more streamlined. Which is what drove me to Pathfinder over any concerns over combat speed. Though Pathfinder did greatly improve combat speed with their CMB/CMD mechanic, which comes up quite often. I was happy for that. That was a nice mechanical advance.

 

[Festivus]

I'll stop after this I promise

I too grew up on much the same as you did. I love the d20 system as a step up from the mayhem of 1E/AD&D days when everyone had different houserules. But what drives me nuts, even today, is not the over all game system, but how things are written for it. In 4E, everything I need is right there, I don't need to look up anything.

A first level adventure in Pathfinder I was DMing just the other night, I had to refer to the stat block in the adventure, which referred me to a creature in the beastiary, which had an ability that I had to look up in the core rulebook. Why!?!? That one thing alone makes it more difficult (and intimidating) for someone to want to step in and run.

Rules familiarity helps a lot with this... but seriously, look at that tome known as the core rulebook and tell me it isn't intimidating.

I for one cannot wait for the new starter set Paizo is constructing... I just wish they would draw on that one design principle from 4e and include everything you need in the freaking stat blocks so you don't have to search everywhere for information.