Years after completely ditching the system, WotC makes their move!

[frankthedm]

What I'm wondering about is with the recent stirring from Legal Department, will it be turning its eyestalks at the Creature Catalog web page and subsequent uses in Tome of Horrors [3.0 / 3.5] and the more recent use in Pathfinder. I've always been curious to the exact details of whether Necromancer / SSS had the actual authority to release the classic D&D critters into d20 status.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

May not matter legally, but I also want to add that I firmly believe that CK gave WotC sales. Both intentionally (posting short blurbs to try and remain within fair use) and unintentionally (very glaring errors), CK left itself as a good reference library to look stuff up quick, but at the same time was about as reliable as wikipedia. Looking on there for things was fine, but IME a fair number of DMs would want to actually see the rule you were trying to use in the book before they'd allow it. Further, if you found a lot of cool rules items from a certain book, it would logically lead you to consider buying it. Unless you never intended to buy a book in the first place, in which case CK at least didn't cost you a sale. This isn't even as tough as the "piracy helps sales" argument. With a pirated pdf you have the ENTIRE book. CK was summaries and blurbs, it in no way gave you the complete picture of what was in a particular book.

Whether or not CK helped drive sales is immaterial: it's WotC's right AND duty to control it's IP. If they decided what CK was doing was a problem for them right now or could become one in the future, that's their perogative.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't know...we still get a fair number of new posters in this forum just starting out with 3E. The game's not dying out yet. Might be getting leached at slowly by pathfinder, but at least that's in the same ballpark.

True, and I'm one of the people still running it...and again, the books are still out there. I've personally bought several core sets of 3Ed and 3.5Ed- adding OA & dice for good measure- to be sent to troops overseas.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Whether or not CK helped drive sales is immaterial: it's WotC's right AND duty to control it's IP. If they decided what CK was doing was a problem for them right now or could become one in the future, that's their perogative.

I haven't seen anyone arguing the contrary, so I'm not sure who you're preaching to, exactly; the choir is already singing.

The point of this entire thread seems to be to point out that ...
-- the move is easily seen as nothing but sheer pettiness, or as a knee-jerk reaction to the rather abysmal reception 4E has gotten from some people;
-- WotC was not losing profits due to CrystalKeep's site, as they'd already given up on profits when they gave up on the system;
-- WotC's IP rights were not (and still are not) in jeopardy due to CK or any similar sites;
-- WotC seems not to have considered any of the PR ramifications of this decision, which from a fanbase viewpoint, is one in a long line of incredibly stupid decisions;
-- the move is purposeless when torrent websites have effectively rendered any chances of preventing copyrighted material from being traded free of charge;
-- this act could actually do nothing other than lower the number of new and prospective 3.x players.


Just because you have a right doesn't mean exercising it on purpose is wrong.

If WotC had any "duty" to protect intellectual property rights, they would have exercised it many years ago by going after CK and similar sites and shutting them down. Those sites have been up far too long for WotC to claim with a straight face in open court that they'd done everything necessary to strenuously defend their copyright. I suspect the reason they never bothered before is because their lawyers have informed them they were in NO such danger.

If they were ... well, hell, they've already lost that copyright, and someone should file a suit about it.

 

[Orius]

I have to wonder about the timing myself. It's been there for a while, and WotC is just getting around to it? I'm not going to bother putting on a tin foil hat and go on about the latest WotC/Hasbro conspiracy, because that's gotten to be ridiculuous at this point. But it does make people wonder about whether they're up to something. Or state their views on how 4e is failing, which seems to be based on wishful thinking rather than any concrete facts.

Either that, or WotC legal department is woefully inefficient.

It is kind of a shame though, I just discovered the site as I'm running my first game in years, and some of the information looked useful as a reference.

And is the 3.x archive really in imminent danger of coming down? As far as I can tell, it's still there more or less intact, it's just buried behind the main site:

3.5 D&D Archives

You have to do a site search to get to it quickly or bookmark it, but it's there.

My biggest problem is that I have a lot of the stuff I want saved, but it's on a disc, and that format is becoming deprecated. So I have to transfer that stuff from a disc to a flash drive or SD card if I want to keep accessing it, and that's what irritates me about stuff being taken down, it sometimes gets hard to replace. I can't afford to keep up with the bloody tech treadmill most of the time.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

The point of this entire thread seems to be to point out that ...
-- the move is easily seen as nothing but sheer pettiness, or as a knee-jerk reaction to the rather abysmal reception 4E has gotten from some people;

Even as someone who vastly prefers 3.X, as an Entertainment lawyer, I can assure you that "pettiness" is not the #1 reason for this move- its a legitimate business decision.

-- WotC was not losing profits due to CrystalKeep's site, as they'd already given up on profits when they gave up on the system;

That is immaterial.

-- WotC's IP rights were not (and still are not) in jeopardy due to CK or any similar sites;

Yes they were- one right is the ability to control access to the property in the market. If you do not enforce your rights against "open and notorious" infringers, it is possible to lose your ability to defend against others.

-- WotC seems not to have considered any of the PR ramifications of this decision, which from a fanbase viewpoint, is one in a long line of incredibly stupid decisions

I agree that it's not the best PR, but sometimes you have to take a PR hit to do what is best for your fundamental interests

-- the move is purposeless when torrent websites have effectively rendered any chances of preventing copyrighted material from being traded free of charge

;
If WotC does not enforce it's rights against CK, it could lose it's ability to enforce those same rights if they go after the torrent sites, etc.
-

- this act could actually do nothing other than lower the number of new and prospective 3.x players.

All we can do on that point is speculate.

If WotC had any "duty" to protect intellectual property rights, they would have exercised it many years ago by going after CK and similar sites and shutting them down. Those sites have been up far too long for WotC to claim with a straight face in open court that they'd done everything necessary to strenuously defend their copyright. I suspect the reason they never bothered before is because their lawyers have informed them they were in NO such danger.

If they were ... well, hell, they've already lost that copyright, and someone should file a suit about it.

Nah, they still have the right and duty, the statute of limitations hasn't run yet.

 

[DumbPaladin]

If you really are an entertainment lawyer, how would you explain to a judge that WotC has been actively protecting their copyright by allowing Crystalkeep to stay afloat and infringe upon said copyright for years?

 

[frankthedm]

I'd really like to say Wotc was taking things too far and Goose stepping with the CopyReich Gestapo, but CK's indexes were far beyond Fair Use IMO.

So any bets how long Chet's Mirror site for Crystal Keep stays up?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

If you really are an entertainment lawyer, how would you explain to a judge that WotC has been actively protecting their copyright by allowing Crystalkeep to stay afloat and infringe upon said copyright for years?

I wouldn't have to, because the Court doesn't care how long it took for WotC to get around to CK as long as its within the statute of limitations. Essentially, its a non-issue.

However, if they started doing selective enforcement- and whether or not it is selective or not is a question of fact to be decided in court- there could be an issue. Then WotC might have to show why it enforces its rights against some infringers and not others...and if they don't have a good reason, they could be in trouble. They could be deemed to have abandoned part or all of their rights.

For instance, if you post something on the internet and tell users its ok for them to copy it and share it, you cannot then turn around and sue someone for infringement if they repost it.

In this case, CK is relatively high profile- if WotC does not go after them, they'll have issues going after others.

 

[DumbPaladin]

I'd really like to say Wotc was taking things too far and Goose stepping with the CopyReich Gestapo, but CK's indexes were far beyond Fair Use IMO.

So any bets how long Chet's Mirror site for Crystal Keep stays up?

Well, if they actually are doing this because they're in fear of losing their copyright and/or IP rights, you'd think they'd do it soon ...