Is D&D (WotC) flaming out?

[Philotomy Jurament]

is WotC (and by extension, D&D itself) flaming out?

I have no interest in the current edition, and haven't purchased anything from WotC in years. From my point of view, WotC and the D&D brand flamed out a long time ago. But I'm just one man, not the market.

I doubt 4e D&D is a loser; I think it's probably making money. I doubt it's making as much money as was hoped. Also, I get the impression that D&D isn't the 800 lb. gorilla, anymore. It's still the dominant silverback, but maybe it's only 500 lbs., now.

We're three years into the current edition, and if we're already reaching the point where much of the official publication is repackaging/reimagining rather than truly original exciting material, I don't think it bodes well.

I guess the whole "Yet Another Returning Expedition to the Keep Near the Tomb of Elemental Horrors" concept still sells.

 

[catastrophic]

I'm not.
My statement was based on what I've seen on ENWorld the past few years. Simply put, there aren't many who love & mastered 3.XEd who likewise love & mastered 4Ed, and game conversions work best when there is equal skill on both sides of the equation.

Yes, you are.

One, you're assumng that love=mastery, and that's simply not true- for instance, many of the people I know who despise 3e certainly have a better grasp of it's mechanics than the people who defend it. The spellcaster debates in various places are a clear example of that. Likewise, a lot of the people sticking with 3e use house rules or limited class lists to vercome shortcomings that they themselves often dont' deny.

Second, you're assuming that the type of people who bitch about either system are the type of people who are likely to work on a conversion, or that those people represent the majority of a comunity. This is highly debatable to say the least. If anything, I'd say that people who spend theirtime doing that stuff are less likely to have time to spend on other things in any event- regardless of their agregated views of both systems.

Instead, catsclaw should be looking for other comunity members, even if it's hard to find them through all the hate and noise. The noise doesn't mean there isn't signal behind it.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

The series from which the term "Adventure Path" originated was published by WotC when 3.0e was first published. It started with "Sunless Citadel" and ended with "Bastion of Broken Souls".

I just pulled my copy of "sunless Citadel" off of the shelf and there's nothing that describes it as an AP. In fact on the back to the module it says specifically:

"The Sunless Citadel is a Stand alone adventure for the Dungeons & Dragons game"

Forge of Fury which I think is the next mod in the "series" has no link to The Sunless Citadel.

I have Lord of the Iron Fortress but it's in a box in a closet somewhere so I'm not certain if there's a connection to the earlier mods in he series as well.

Bastion of Broken Souls basically says the same thing and in my admittedly brief perusal of both mods there's nothing that connects one to the other.

So unless the connection isn't stated I dont see these as AP's at all. Were they declared to be an AP after the fact?

 

[Ycore Rixle]

The series from which the term "Adventure Path" originated was published by WotC when 3.0e was first published. It started with "Sunless Citadel" and ended with "Bastion of Broken Souls".

I just pulled my copy of "sunless Citadel" off of the shelf and there's nothing that describes it as an AP.

Chris Thomasson, now Chris Youngs, got the modern adventure path idea rolling with the Shackled City/Cauldron adventure path in Dungeon magazine, where he was editor. I think around issue 100 but I'm not looking it up. Chris deserves a lot of credit for that (also for the modern swarm/mob mechanic and other things).

You could also say that Gary Gygax got the adventure path idea rolling with, well, lots of stuff, but in particular standouts such as G1, G2, G3, D1, D2, D3, Q1. But that's not especially modern or especially path-y.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I like 3e, but I don't love it. I can honestly state that my understanding the mechanics leads to the lack of love.

I don't really try to transfer things between the two, because what I love about 4e is typically a fix on what I hate about 3e, and vice versa. There's not much to transfer between the two without making some kind of bizarre half and half new system entirely.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yes, you are.

One, you're assumng that love=mastery,

...And that's simply not true. Note, please, that I used the phrase "love & mastered"- were I of the opinion that they were equivalent, I would have only used one or the other.

Besides, I myself love many RPGs I have not mastered, and have mastered RPGs I do not love.

Second, you're assuming that the type of people who bitch about either system are the type of people who are likely to work on a conversion, or that those people represent the majority of a comunity.

Neither of those is true either.

I think that those who bitch about systems are the LEAST likely to work on such a conversion, and that the majority of the community is silent on their preferences OR don't feel strongly either way.

However, due to their low profile on matters of edition preferences, they are also harder to find. You're FAR more likely to find persons with strong opinions volunteering to express themselves.

 

[Tallifer]

There is an easy way to measure popularity. How easy is it to find a free torrent on the internet? (And not a fake one from certain sites that appear in some google searches; one an average pirate can download for free.) Yes, piracy is morally questionable, but it is also a good measure of popularity.

Search for Lady Gaga: tons of torrents. Search for The Polka Dogs: nada, zip.

Search for everything 4th edition before Essentials: tons of torrents. Many of the earlier books like the Players' Handbook II and Divine Power were uploaded almost the same day as their release. Search for Essentials: hardly anything. Even pirates cannot be bothered to scan and upload it.

I would say that enthusiasm for 4th Edition is starting to die down.

 

[delericho]

I just pulled my copy of "sunless Citadel" off of the shelf and there's nothing that describes it as an AP. In fact on the back to the module it says specifically:

"The Sunless Citadel is a Stand alone adventure for the Dungeons & Dragons game"

Forge of Fury which I think is the next mod in the "series" has no link to The Sunless Citadel.

I have Lord of the Iron Fortress but it's in a box in a closet somewhere so I'm not certain if there's a connection to the earlier mods in he series as well.

Bastion of Broken Souls basically says the same thing and in my admittedly brief perusal of both mods there's nothing that connects one to the other.

So unless the connection isn't stated I dont see these as AP's at all. Were they declared to be an AP after the fact?

While the modules can be run stand-alone, there are links between them that may become apparent to observant groups as they go through the adventures.

For example, the "Gulthais Tree" in Sunless Citadel is tied to the vampire Gulthais, from Heart of Nightfang Spire. Gulthais was a minion of Ashardalon, from Bastion of Broken Souls. The dwarven smith who built the Forge of Fury is encountered in Lord of the Iron Fortress. There were other links, but they were pretty subtle.

It is true that that Path wasn't as tightly connected as we're now used to seeing. However, I'm sure that the term "Adventure Path" was first used at that time, and to describe those adventures. (Unfortunately, my Google-fu isn't strong enough to find a suitable reference from ten years ago, so I can't cite.)

Chris Thomasson, now Chris Youngs, got the modern adventure path idea rolling with the Shackled City/Cauldron adventure path in Dungeon magazine, where he was editor.

You could also say that Gary Gygax got the adventure path idea rolling with, well, lots of stuff, but in particular standouts such as G1, G2, G3, D1, D2, D3, Q1. But that's not especially modern or especially path-y.

Both of these things are true. The Dragonlance adventures were also a very good example of an Adventure Path.

 

[Dice4Hire]

There is an easy way to measure popularity. How easy is it to find a free torrent on the internet? (And not a fake one from certain sites that appear in some google searches; one an average pirate can download for free.) Yes, piracy is morally questionable, but it is also a good measure of popularity.

Search for Lady Gaga: tons of torrents. Search for The Polka Dogs: nada, zip.

Search for everything 4th edition before Essentials: tons of torrents. Many of the earlier books like the Players' Handbook II and Divine Power were uploaded almost the same day as their release. Search for Essentials: hardly anything. Even pirates cannot be bothered to scan and upload it.

I would say that enthusiasm for 4th Edition is starting to die down.

That is a one-sided way of looking at it. I think a lot of the 4E classic pdfs coming out so regularly and quickly was more a reaction to the pdfs being withdrawn due to piracy. You challenge those folks and they will respond.

I have also noticed that essentials is nowhere to be seen, and I wonder why. I do not think it is a lack of popularity. I am not sure what it is, but something is going on.

 

[Jhaelen]

I have also noticed that essentials is nowhere to be seen, and I wonder why. I do not think it is a lack of popularity. I am not sure what it is, but something is going on.

I'd think one contributing factor might be that most of the Essentials products are box sets as opposed to books. About the only one I'd want as a pdf version is the Rules Compendium.