Is it time for 5E?

[Jack Daniel]

It happened with Chainmail, OD&D, etc. too, there just wasn't the internet and the Anonymous Keyboard Commando Empowerment Complex.

...Wait, whut?

Are you actually claiming that when Chainmail came out, there was a fanbase to be angry at whatever wargame it could've been superseding? And that when D&D came out, it made the Chainmail fans mad, but they just didn't have an internet to go complain on? "Stupid Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, ruining our wargames with their newfangled role-playing?" Really?!

Unless of course, you're just using hyperbole to make your point. That, I get. Your point is obviously wrong, because you're just trying to paint all fan-driven internet arguments as the same sort of narrow-minded, tribalistic, impotent nerd-rage, thus excluding by fiat (or more accurately, by false equivalence) the very possibility that one might have a legitimate complaint about anything. But I get it.

 

[M.L. Martin]

And that when D&D came out, it made the Chainmail fans mad, but they just didn't have an internet to go complain on? "Stupid Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, ruining our wargames with their newfangled role-playing?" Really?!

While I wasn't there (I wasn't even alive when OD&D came out), I've heard that this sort of grumbling not only existed among the old-school wargaming fans, but it's where the application of the term 'grognard' in this hobby came from in the first place.

 

[Bluenose]

While I wasn't there (I wasn't even alive when OD&D came out), I've heard that this sort of grumbling not only existed among the old-school wargaming fans, but it's where the application of the term 'grognard' in this hobby came from in the first place.

I was alive then, and I remember the moaning from the wargaming community about D&D. I'm not sure it's where grognard came from, mind you. It wouldn't surprise me, since Napoleonics was one of the most popular wargaming periods and the term would likely have been familiar to a lot of people, but I didn't hear it used among RPGers until the 1990s - White Wolf being the catalyst.

 

[Herschel]

Your point is obviously wrong, because you're just trying to paint all fan-driven internet arguments as the same sort of narrow-minded, tribalistic, impotent nerd-rage, thus excluding by fiat (or more accurately, by false equivalence) the very possibility that one might have a legitimate complaint about anything.

I did nothing of the sort, but (as others have also pointed out) there's always been fan-driven nerd-rage. Doesn't mean it's even a majority, but deny it's there is rather..... blind.

The funny thing is those most vehemently denying this phenomena are usually the ones most guilty of it. There's a difference between legitimate complaint and frothing lunacy, but sometimes that line gets a little blurred.

Except for furries. Nobody likes them

 

[Diamond Cross]

Well, I guess I don't fit the mold.

I don't have anything against people who want 4e.

But I am frustrated that we only had a couple of years of support for 3.5e/d20 though. That was a bad move and they should've waited a few more years before going on to 4e.

I just wish that some 4e players had the same kind of respect for me, that they wouldn't hold anything against me because my preferred game is 3.5 and d20.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

...Wait, whut?

Are you actually claiming that when Chainmail came out, there was a fanbase to be angry at whatever wargame it could've been superseding? And that when D&D came out, it made the Chainmail fans mad, but they just didn't have an internet to go complain on? "Stupid Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson, ruining our wargames with their newfangled role-playing?" Really?!

Unless of course, you're just using hyperbole to make your point. That, I get. Your point is obviously wrong, because you're just trying to paint all fan-driven internet arguments as the same sort of narrow-minded, tribalistic, impotent nerd-rage, thus excluding by fiat (or more accurately, by false equivalence) the very possibility that one might have a legitimate complaint about anything. But I get it.

Dude, where do you think the modern usage of "grognard" came from?

 

[Tallifer]

Indeed. I remember being ridiculed and insulted at a games club in the 80s by older wargamers because I played roleplaying games like 1st edition thus diluting my devotion to boardgames. And their attacks were just as uninformed and prejudiced as some against 4th edition.

Fortunately at the time, 90% of the club happily played anything with anyone. And nowadays, 90% of players will play any roleplaying game which has a group and a dungeon master.

 

[Mercurius]

I think they've been pretty open these passed two months with calendar changes, design philosophies, podcasts, the apology for the e-assassin, increase of fluff to Dragon and Dungeon (which is a balance they're still trying to get right, but hey it's a process) and so on. And they do preview what they have in store for us. Not to mention we have the luxury of actual reps and designers occasionally stopping in or blogging, and guys like mudbunny nice enough to go digging for even more information.

Who else do you think they should foster good will with at this point? The 3e/PF people still haunting the WotC site and 4e threads? I see that as a lost cause, despite the fact many of them still seek nothing short of corporate and designer apologies for making something they don't like. Grognards? New players? The Chicken Littles?

Yes there have been PR blunders along the way. I'm not denying that. But I do see positive change. I mean fostering good will isn't instantaneous. They are taking the preliminary steps to communicate with their fan base and experiment with new products, despite the great internet wailing- people who will never be content with this game.

Improvement? Yeah, maybe - I don't feel like I've paid enough attention to their announcement to be able to make a good judgment. But "improvement" is by definition relative; it doesn't mean "good."

What I'd like to see, for one, is them tell the customers what happened to disappeared product that we might have been looking forward to. How hard would it be to say "Don't worry, the Nentir Vale Gazetteer is coming later in 2011" or, if they want to be cryptic and have something special in store for us, "Nentir Vale Gazetteer? A bigger, better product killed it and took its stuff."

Without either kind of response we're left wondering if the product was just axed, which doesn't go over all that well.

 

[Pour]

Improvement? Yeah, maybe - I don't feel like I've paid enough attention to their announcement to be able to make a good judgment. But "improvement" is by definition relative; it doesn't mean "good."

What I'd like to see, for one, is them tell the customers what happened to disappeared product that we might have been looking forward to. How hard would it be to say "Don't worry, the Nentir Vale Gazetteer is coming later in 2011" or, if they want to be cryptic and have something special in store for us, "Nentir Vale Gazetteer? A bigger, better product killed it and took its stuff."

Without either kind of response we're left wondering if the product was just axed, which doesn't go over all that well.

Fair enough, but you've got to admit 'improved' is moving closer to 'good' and further away from 'bad'.

They've got a ways to go yet, and I wouldn't mind some information on these missing books too, but I'm willing to give them some time and some leeway, especially since we're so early into the new year and there's still so much I'm anticipating that hasn't been definitively nixed, electronic and print.

 

[Mark CMG]

I was alive then, and I remember the moaning from the wargaming community about D&D.

I was there, too, and in northern Illinois and just south of the heart of what I call the Cradle of D&D (a crescent shape running from Chicago to Minneapolis, its outer arc encompassing Milwaukee and inner arc cresting through northern Illinois ). In the local game clubs which including mostly wargamers, often from Fort Sheridan and Great Lakes Naval Training Center, there was a great deal of looking down the nose by wargamers toward early RPGing. Some of us were young enough not to make the distinction and just did lots of both.

I'm not sure it's where grognard came from, mind you. It wouldn't surprise me, since Napoleonics was one of the most popular wargaming periods and the term would likely have been familiar to a lot of people, but I didn't hear it used among RPGers until the 1990s - White Wolf being the catalyst.

Here's where the modern use of the term grognard stems -

The Word "Grognard"