D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Rouge Grendiner?

[Dandu]

Are you trying to bring realism into a game where some classes can shatter the fabric of space and time in under 6 seconds?

 

[Alexander123]

HA HA HA! How often people try to just that.

 

[Empirate]

SA dice represent a rogue's ability to exploit anatomical knowledge to deal critical damage.
All classes have the ability to deal critical damage, a Rogue is just well prepared to exploit anatomical knowledge with martial prowess.

The Rogue can shiv his dagger through an eye slit on a full helmet. The flask of Alchemist Fire shatters against the eye slit and splashes fire all over the helmet, but chances are that none of it (or a very small amount) would get through the slit.

The rogue can maneuver his blade beneath the shoulder plate to pierce into the fighter's flesh. The Alchemist's Fire splashes against the breastplate.



Without looking at the die rolls necessary there, the Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian with Power Attack and Headlong Rush is an optimised character path that requires step-by-step, thought out processes.
This is a rogue that picked up a flask.

Looking at die rolls.. assuming a d12 weapon, power attack at 8 and a 20 str.
d12+16+5's average damage is 27 x 2 for Headlong Rush is 54.
Not quite 120.

Sneak Attack damage is, first and foremost, simply mechanical extra damage. How you explain it is up to you. But as long as your explanation doesn't include a way in which Alchemist's Fire or Acid can inflict that extra damage, it's simply not a good explanation. Coz those things do extra damage in the hands of a Rogue, like it or not. It's up to you to change your view of how things work, not up to the rules to prove your view of things right.

That Barbarian has Lion Totem for a reason: so he can take a full attack on a charge. Include Whirling Frenzy, and maybe a Haste spell, in the equation, and you're looking at much more than 120 points of damage (if all attacks hit). Also, Str bonuses on two-handed weapons are x1.5.

BTW, the Barbarian example wasn't just taken from thin air, and doesn't really represent great optimization effort.
I have a Half-Orc Barbarian 8 just like that running around in my group. He has Str 22 (16 base, +2 racial, +2 levels, +2 Gauntlets of Ogre Power - not unusual), 26 in a Whirling Frenzy. He uses a simple Guisarme +1, and often receives a Haste and an Enlarge Person spell prior to combat. Two feats (Power Attack and Headlong Rush) ensure he can, as a rule, one-shot whatever he can charge.

Damage potential on a full attack in a charge, Frenzying, Hasted, and Enlarged, with full Power Attack:
2d6 + 30, times two (Headlong Rush), times four attacks (two from BAB, one from Frenzy, one from Haste),
equals 16d6 + 240, or 296/round, not counting crits.
This is when all attacks hit (which they usually won't), and the player never Power Attacks for full, but still.

 

[Sekhmet]

[MENTION=85158]Dandu[/MENTION]: When the rules do not explicitly state one way or another on a touchy subject, if you do not assume mundane physics apply then the world would break, everyone on it would be flung into the sky, barbarians would be unable to move from sheer muscle mass, and the list just goes on and on.

Magic is awesome and does awesome things. Chemical, physical, and biological responses are not magic. The physical liquid that splashes out a burst vial is not magically propelled, it's physically propelled and will act in a mundane fashion.

 

[Sekhmet]

Sneak Attack damage is, first and foremost, simply mechanical extra damage. How you explain it is up to you. But as long as your explanation doesn't include a way in which Alchemist's Fire or Acid can inflict that extra damage, it's simply not a good explanation. Coz those things do extra damage in the hands of a Rogue, like it or not. It's up to you to change your view of how things work, not up to the rules to prove your view of things right.
.

In keeping with the idea that all things that are immune to critical damage are immune to sneak attack damage, it is very safe to assume that SA damage is fundamentally the same as critical damage.


It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for a splash to deal additional damage in the hands of a Rogue than in the hands of a peasant. It is the liquid itself, not the user, not the force applied to the throw, or anything else that applies the damage.

A pint of ale in a flask, when thrown by a barbarian, deals as much damage as a pint of ale in a flask when thrown by a rogue. Why should the Rogue deal 10d6 worth of damage when he gets a dwarf all wet in a bar?

 

[Dandu]

When the rules do not explicitly state one way or another on a touchy subject, if you do not assume mundane physics apply then the world would break, everyone on it would be flung into the sky, barbarians would be unable to move from sheer muscle mass, and the list just goes on and on.

Right, except the rules are pretty clear on this.

Magic is awesome and does awesome things. Chemical, physical, and biological responses are not magic. The physical liquid that splashes out a burst vial is not magically propelled, it's physically propelled and will act in a mundane fashion.

A level 19 Rogue can walk on water, squeeze through spaces smaller than his head, and climb vertical surfaces. Any pretense at realism this game might have ever had died long before 10d6 sneak attack damage came into play.

 

[TanisFrey]

You must remember that a rogue 9 doing a sneak attack with Alchemist fire will do 1d6 fire + 5d6 per hit that costs 10gp. Or ~21 fire damage per hit, they can throw 1 per turn unless they invest in a Masterwork Potion Bandoleer or the Quick Draw feat. If they do invest they can make 2 attacks per turn or ~42 fire damage per turn and cost them 20 gp per turn.

The 9th level Barbarian can do with as Empirate said 120 hp per turn and not cost him anything. The barbarian is not using an expendable item to do his damage, the weapon is already paid for/captured.

In the end the rogue is doing less damage for more cost, and that is if he can get into the correct spot to do that damage.

 

[Empirate]

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for a splash to deal additional damage in the hands of a Rogue than in the hands of a peasant. It is the liquid itself, not the user, not the force applied to the throw, or anything else that applies the damage.

A pint of ale in a flask, when thrown by a barbarian, deals as much damage as a pint of ale in a flask when thrown by a rogue. Why should the Rogue deal 10d6 worth of damage when he gets a dwarf all wet in a bar?

The Rogue has some way of increasing the liquid's damage, though. It's up to each individual group to come up with a flavor reason for this, but the rules seem pretty clear to me. Obviously, the Rogue hits just the flammable spot ("go for the beard!"), or propels the flask so most of the liquid splashes in one direction, or everybody else just throws grenade-like stuff at people's feet instead of directly at their body, or whatever. "Makes no sense" is really not an impressive argument in a fantasy game.

The pint of ale, by the way, would deal more damage in the hands of a Rogue (if it deals damage at all, that is).

 

[Runestar]

How does weapon specialisation allow a fighter to deal more damage with throwing acid?

Simply apply the same logic to sneak attack.

 

[Sekhmet]

How does weapon specialisation allow a fighter to deal more damage with throwing acid?

Simply apply the same logic to sneak attack.

It shouldn't.

The Rogue has some way of increasing the liquid's damage, though. It's up to each individual group to come up with a flavor reason for this, but the rules seem pretty clear to me. Obviously, the Rogue hits just the flammable spot ("go for the beard!"), or propels the flask so most of the liquid splashes in one direction, or everybody else just throws grenade-like stuff at people's feet instead of directly at their body, or whatever. "Makes no sense" is really not an impressive argument in a fantasy game.

The pint of ale, by the way, would deal more damage in the hands of a Rogue (if it deals damage at all, that is).

Beard on fire is aesthetic damage, very much like using a magic marker and drawing a mustache on a sleeping person. Should drawing a mustache on a sleeping person qualify for 10d6 SA CDG attacks?

Makes no sense is the only argument that really matters in a fantasy game. If you can imagine it, and you can see it happen, there is no reason that you should not try to find a way to make it happen.
When you imagine something like this and you can't see it work, you move on to the next idea, otherwise it separates the game from any semblance of reality. Why not allow people to make their Jump check to cross an ocean? Or over a canyon the long way? Why not let people squeeze through a hole that is two inches across when the largest of their bones is three times the size?
It makes no sense, and I encourage players to use common sense.

Balance

Balance isn't the issue. The rogue is better off using a longbow at 30' with elemental arrows/enhancement qualities, and that is a permanent solution instead of a temporary one.

lolskills

If the Rogue can polymorph into a tiny/diminutive creature, let him go through the hole. A two inch hole is too small for any of the major bones to pass through, regardless of your skill at Houdini-ing.
A perfectly smooth wall or ceiling is possible to climb through exorbitant use of surface tension. Spiders do it all the time. Walking on water is another exorbitant use of surface tension, but still physically possible.