So it's finally happened? D&D reduced to board games...

[ShinHakkaider]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I dont play 4E as an RPG and I'm not a fan.

HOWEVER, I did buy the Castle Ravenloft Boardgame and play it with my 9 year old. He loves it and I love playing it with him. I just pre-ordered Wrath of Ashardalon from Amazon with the anticipation of playing it. My son is SUPER excited about it.

I am a Pathfinder die hard and the only two products that I've bought from WOTC since my 4E gift set was these two boardgames. If and when they decide to make a 3rd I'll probably be picking that up as well.

I think that the D&D boardgames will do just fine.

ALSO? I dont own any gaming t-shirts and I dont think a D20 t-shirt would be something that I'd wear. I could possibly see wearing a Shadowrun T-shirt though. Vampire? not so much...

 

[delericho]

Also, Paizo's sales numbers aren't remotely approaching WotC's for D&D. This entire thing was started with this article which is an informal poll of hobby stores asking which was selling better. It doesn't quote actual sales numbers, actual print run numbers, or any other solid data. It also doesn't count mainstream bookstores like Borders and Barnes & Noble and does not count Amazon sales. It also doesn't distinguish between sourcebook/module sales and core rulebook sales.

Erik Mona and others from Paizo weighed in on the matter, stating that this was consistent with their own customer data. There's good reason to believe that it's (reasonably) accurate.

Also, note that while those figures don't include WotC's revenue from the DDI, neither do they include Paizo's own revenue from subscriptions. In both cases, those represent the companies' largest sales channel.

D&D has always and will always have the edge in the pen and paper roleplaying market.

Not true. D&D should always have the edge, but it has no divine right to it, or even to continue to exist. If mismanaged (as has happened at least twice in the past) it will find itself in real danger of disappearing.

Frankly, it is absolutely shocking that Pathfinder is even in the same ballpark as D&D.

 

[moxcamel]

Also, note that while those figures don't include WotC's revenue from the DDI, neither do they include Paizo's own revenue from subscriptions. In both cases, those represent the companies' largest sales channel.

I know Paizo struck gold with Pathfinder, and I'm a big Pathfinder fan myself. At the very least, I think Paizo keeps WotC on their toes, but that's not to say I don't believe Paizo products are world class. I'm glad we have choices like D&D and Pathfinder.

Having said that, I have a very difficult time believing Paizo subscription income come close to DDI subscriptions. I have nothing official to base that on, and I'd love to see data that even suggests it either way, but until then I remain very skeptical.

Not true. D&D should always have the edge, but it has no divine right to it, or even to continue to exist. If mismanaged (as has happened at least twice in the past) it will find itself in real danger of disappearing.

I'll be the first in line to criticize some of WotC's decisions, but I don't think "mismanaged" in the sense that TSR mismanaged the brand fits at all. D&D was *soaked* for cash under TSR management, with no long-term plan or even desire to keep it and the community healthy. I don't think you can say that about WotC. They might stumble occasionally, but I still see D&D's future as very bright under the WotC banner.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Could please someone fork a thread into the big riverbed of Wotc/Paizo-Sales-whitewater? I know the substance of this thread was thin to begin with, but is there really someone left on these boards that didn't least seen the first volleys in this little tennis game? (...D&D will always... ...no data... market leader ...amazing success... ...strong brand... ...plucky little game company... ....nooooooo.... ...Paizo sez... ...a hobo at gencon 07 told me ...Hasbro earnings report... ...Jesus bought Paizo stocks... ...Mike Mearls magical tricorne hat.... ...red sea scrolls contain sales data for q08/09...)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While I own fantasy-themed t-shirts, none are related to a particular RPG.

OTOH, yours truly did custom designed a pendant with real stones representing the 5 colors of Magic which I wore to tournaments back in the day...

I put it away after retiring from the circuit post-6th- too many brain-dead rules revisions and broken (probably under-tested) card designs- but AIR, it contained a tourmaline for Green, an emerald-cut optical grade quartz for White, and a piece of abalone for Blue. I'd have to look at it again to remember what I used for Res and Black.

 

[Crispy Critter]

Back in the early 80s my first exposure to D&D was watching my father play with his fellow engineers at our house. Obviously it sparked the imagination of this player at the age 0f 8 or 9. I wanted D&D for Christmas and it was certainly starting to explode into the mainstream at that time. My father got me this electronic version of the game where you would set up your dungeon on an electronic board and face monsters as you traveled through it. It was an introductory product, not the actual RPG. There were other board game style offshoots as well from the RPG version along with the cartoon, Gord the Rogue novels, etc. The game had certainly caught the imagination of a broader segment of the population and products like the one I originally received reflected that they were expanding the D&D brand beyond adventuring around the Keep on the Borderlands.

Now we are seeing board games like Castle Ravenloft and Asherdelon and I'm wondering is this the result of WoTC taking advantage of a surge in popularity with the game to once again penetrate different markets beyond the hobby niche or is this a desperate attempt to keep the money rolling in because of less than expected sales numbers? Or is it a little of both or something else entirely? I must admit it doesn't feel the same as that time almost 30 years ago when I was first discovering the game and D&D was branching out beyond modules and hardcover gaming books. But then again I'm not that 9 year old kid discovering this whole new universe for the first time so my perspective could definitely be skewed.

 

[Stormonu]

ALSO? I dont own any gaming t-shirts and I dont think a D20 t-shirt would be something that I'd wear. I could possibly see wearing a Shadowrun T-shirt though. Vampire? not so much...

Huh, I've considered getting this d20 shirt for my wife....


And Piazo may be running a bit closer than many think, as each of their AP subscriptions costs about as much as 1month of DDI. On top of that, they also have other subscriptions where they pretty much ensure folks are buying straight through them.

 

[Henry]

D&D should always have the edge, but it has no divine right to it, or even to continue to exist. If mismanaged (as has happened at least twice in the past) it will find itself in real danger of disappearing.

Frankly, it is absolutely shocking that Pathfinder is even in the same ballpark as D&D.

Also, I believe Erik Mona made a post on Circvs Maximvs that said (assuming no misunderstandings) that the majority of their revenue still comes in, not from the RPG, but from the paid Adventure Path subscriptions. So it's not like "Pathfinder the RPG" is beating out "D&D the RPG," necessarily.

However, Pathfinder has something right now that D&D has lost, in my opinion: an energized grass roots fanbase. There is a definitely electricity when talking to Pathfinder fans that I'm not seeing with the 4E fans much lately, and I think it's because Essentials has slowed the momentum more than WotC would have liked. Nice products, but they're doing nothing for me and (from what I can tell) nor a LOT of the 4E fans - and the Heroes of Shadow, Heroes of Feywild, and Gardmore Abbey stuff that is left after the book cancellations is not sparking my interest - just not "sexy" enough, to recall a phrase.

However, Pathfinder, with it's Map pack, Ultimate magic, Ultimate Combat, that are coming later this year, are definitely catching my interest and causing a hell of a lot of buzz MONTHS before they're released. WotC's just playing it so close to the vest that I can't even tell WHY I would want something, clear even into its release date, because I really have no interest in buying it due to a halfway enthused blurb on how cool it is. What's Paizo doing, by contrast? They took a note from WotC - they release playtests, they invite fan feedback, they chat up what's going to be in a product and why it'll be awesome, they pique my interest three months before the product is released.

WotC USED to do this, with the PH2 and PH3 playtests in DDI, with the Revenant race, with the interviews with people like Jeff Greiner from The Tome, Mearls used to talk up the new products six months before release, etc. Now, when something is released, I have no desire to seek it out, find it, skim it, try to figure out what's cool.

Now, with all this said? Is WotC "dumbing themselves down?" No, that would be silly. But are they making product that's turning off me and a lot of fans like me with the board games, abundance of Essentials to the expense of other supplments? Absolutely.

 

[SSquirrel]

(Referrring to Paizo equaling WotC in sales)

Citation needed. (also, calling Paizo "rookie" tells me you really know nothing about Paizo)

I was really wondering how long it would take someone to point this out when I first read it. Oh yeah, neither company publicly discloses their sales figures do they? Hasbro COULD post the specifics of WotC, but they aren't required to. They can just list what happened w/whatever division WotC happens to be in. Maybe their book dept did really well and the book dept is where they have all RPGs and novels. Entirely possible that since the games are developed by people who work on D&D (Bill and Mike still work there right? heh) the board games sales are considered under board games, but development is under wherever D&D's R&D is located.

Technically, WotC could be spread throughout several portions of Hasbro and I'm pretty sure most of us who don't work there don't know for sure.

I've got some difficult news for you. You might want to sit down.

D&D's base was always the Mountain Dew/WoW crowd.

A huge number of WoW players are D&D players, and played D&D for just as long as you have. And really, have you never heard the classic Dead Alewives skit involving Mountain Dew?

Yeah I questioned that one too. I know I drank Dew by the case anymore. Don't drink it much anymore, but I sure used to. The Dead Alewives sketch only dates back to '96, but it's pretty fantastic and very representative of the standard stereotype we have usually dealt with. I have a good time playing WoW and so does my wife. We also enjoy kicking butt and playing D&D together. I've played D&D for 23 years. Tabletop, PC, console, board games, MMO, etc. I don't see it stopping anytime soon.

 

[Treebore]

I don't like 4E enough to buy into it as an RPG, but I did get intrigued enough by the Ravenloft game to buy it, and my family and I like it, a lot. We are also seriously considering the new board game as well.

So WOTC did finally come up with a way to get me to play 4E and enjoy it.

So I would say that is pretty good marketing.