Thief seems overpowered to this new/old DM

[KarinsDad]

The higher numbers quoted for the Thief may include the bonus from Backstab, which is completely inappropriate, of course.

Alternatively, they may simply reflect Thief Weapon Talent (+1), Nimble Blade (+1 with CA), and the standard CA bonus (+2). It may also assume that the Thief will start with 20 Dexterity and the Ranger will not.

Again, these assumptions aren't really fair. You can't just say "Rogues always get CA but no one else ever does, so the Rogue always has a +2 advantage." While the Thief (and other Rogues) are the big winners in the CA game, and recent rules changes have made CA almost automatic for them, the fact is that CA is now much easier for any character who makes it a priority. Cunning Stalker, Hidden Sniper and Terrain Advantage (all from HotFK) and Vicious Advantage (PHB3) are available to everyone.

However, you shouldn't just assume the Thief's player is cheating. Dex 20 (+5), Dagger Proficiency (+3), Light Blade Expertise (+1) and CA (+2) is probably the combination that totals +11 for the character in question.

Opps. You're right. I think I accidently gave the Thief +1 for Weapon Talent a level too early.

+10 for the Thief yields 16.175 DPR. Still 4 points higher than the ranged Ranger and that slight gain disappears at level 2.


Cunning Stalker is tougher for ranged Rangers since the foe has to be adjacent. It's good for melee Rangers.

Hidden Sniper is situational. Concealment usually requires a special power or item, so it's really designed for Warlocks.

Terrain Advantage is even more situational.

At first level, the ranged Ranger is probably not going to take any of these compared to Greatbow and if he does, his DPR drops. He might not take any of them until level 6 or higher because there are so many other bread and butter feats that give him more bang for the buck.


If the ranged Ranger could get CA every single round, his DPR would rise to 13.58125. A good reason to take Hidden Sniper if he could only find a way to get concealment (cover is easy, concealment usually takes a power or an item).

We had a Thief in one of our campaigns for 3 levels (that campaign is on hold while we play a different one) and practically the only time that he did not have CA was when he was using an Action Point or an Opportunity Attack. In 3 levels, I think he did not have CA for his main attack once or twice at most.

It's not unfair to give the Thief CA in the calculations because it is a 90% of the time class feature that the ranged Ranger does not have.

CA does have to be considered for a melee Ranger. It still doesn't put him close to the Thief damage-wise until much higher level.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Opps. You're right. I think I accidently gave the Thief +1 for Weapon Talent a level too early.

That's an easy mistake to make, since other Essentials classes all get their +1 bumps at level 1, as does the non-Essentials Rogue.

Cunning Stalker is tougher for ranged Rangers since the foe has to be adjacent. It's good for melee Rangers.

The adjacency requirement is a matter of debate.

Hidden Sniper is situational. Concealment usually requires a special power or item, so it's really designed for Warlocks.

Terrain Advantage is even more situational.

Quite true, but it's still an option.

 

[Obryn]

Prime Shot?

Are you serious?

I've played with quite a few ranged Rangers and the number of times I've seen Prime Shot used is about once per two encounters.

Oh, dear lord. Prime Shot. At Heroic, sure, it's kinda balls. As soon as a Ranger or Warlock hits Paragon, Prime Shot goes from a weak feature to a class-defining one.

The Archer (well, Hunter, but mostly Archer) Ranger in my Paragon game got it almost every round - often intentionally going adjacent to marked targets and provoking OAs (against which his AC is ginormous) to draw punishment from Defenders. Called Shot makes Twin Strike extra-super-scary.

-O

 

[Aulirophile]

If you haven't seem Prime Shot used heavily, you've never played with a Paragon Ranger (Melee or Ranged) who was heavily optimized. Long and short of it. +2 hit/+5 damage per attack on a Striker who makes a minimum of 2 attacks/turn? Yeah, I'll take that.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you haven't seem Prime Shot used heavily, you've never played with a Paragon Ranger (Melee or Ranged) who was heavily optimized. Long and short of it. +2 hit/+5 damage per attack on a Striker who makes a minimum of 2 attacks/turn? Yeah, I'll take that.

Where are you getting +2/+5?

Also, the OP's PCs are level 2. The damage references and the discussion of this thread are ones with respect to low level PCs, not 11th level PCs. Thieves are not really overpowered at Paragon, just low level like the OP's concern.

Prime Shot at low level is rarely used IME and helps out even more rarely. Ranged Ranger players typically are not going to risk being out in front of the rest of the group as a general rule, just to get +1 to hit. At low level, Prime Shot might make a difference on one attack every two levels or so (it might not). Whoop dee doo.

 

[Obryn]

Where are you getting +2/+5?

After a pair of very awesome Paragon-tier feats

Prime Shot at low level is rarely used IME and helps out even more rarely. Ranged Ranger players typically are not going to risk being out in front of the rest of the group as a general rule, just to get +1 to hit. At low level, Prime Shot might make a difference on one attack every two levels or so (it might not). Whoop dee doo.

It really depends how they're played. I still hold that a more effective archer ranger will get prime shot very often, going against a defender's mark. When your enemy is at -6 to-hit for their attack, the risk is well worth the reward.

-O

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Don´t forget, the thief is either more squishy or more in melee range than a ranger... (or deals just 2d6 instead of 2d8 damage)

Of course the thief does more damage usually, but he pays a high price for it... especially if you just chose feats for doing even more damage...

a simple weapon focus and TWF helps a lot to let the ranger to catch up at level 4 or so...

And don´t forget the out of turn actions a ranger has access to at low levels...

 

[KarinsDad]

After a pair of very awesome Paragon-tier feats

Ok, so in a low level discussion about Thieves vs. Rangers, you pull in TWO Paragon level feats (Called Shot and Prime Quarry) to illustrate that the extremely subpar and mostly worthless Prime Shot can indeed be worthwhile by level 13.

Got it.

It really depends how they're played. I still hold that a more effective archer ranger will get prime shot very often, going against a defender's mark. When your enemy is at -6 to-hit for their attack, the risk is well worth the reward.

An effective archer ranger at first level like the discussion here?

Or some Paragon level archer ranger after you ton him and his allies up with a boatload of features?


Prime Shot at heroic levels adds less than 1 to DPR with Twin Strike and even less for most other Ranger attack powers and is often not worth the risk of putting the Ranger out in front considering that in most scenarios, the Ranger can reach most of the foes with his attacks from the safety of cover and/or extreme range.

Prime Shot can be improved upon with feats like Cursed Shot or Primed Shot at heroic, but it needs some type of boost to be worthwhile and then at real low level, the Ranger is lowering DPR by not taking one feat (like Weapon Proficiency Greatbow or Expertise which are used for every attack) to slightly raise DPR by taking a different (at real low level) subpar feat (like Cursed Shot which is situational).

Prime Shot is not even a speedbump in a comparison discussion of Thieves vs. ranged Rangers at low heroic.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Don´t forget, the thief is either more squishy or more in melee range than a ranger... (or deals just 2d6 instead of 2d8 damage)

Could you clarify? What do you mean by that sentence, and in particular the parenthesized clause?

The Thief has one protective mechanism that really isn't available to anyone else: using Sneak's Trick to become hidden when only concealment or cover is available. It's possible to attack (hopefully with CA), move via Sneak's Trick and then hide, popping out for the next turn with CA. Even if this results in being hidden only half of the time, that should reduce incoming damage substantially.

Regarding melee range and the necessity to be closer to it than a ranger would, I assume you refer to the shorter range of a thrown dagger. But there are several ways for the Thief to avoid this problem -- the Far Throw and Distant Shot feats, using a Distance Weapon or Determined Weapon (I favor the latter because it still does extra crit damage), or simply using a hand crossbow or sling instead.

The main reason for a Thief to want to be close to the melee action is for specific interaction with other party members. For example, the Thief might want to use Unbalancing Trick to knock an opponent prone or Thug's Trick to lock them down. But in either case, surely the Thief is teaming with a Defender who can limit the risk, another Striker who will provide an equally tempting target, or a Leader who will be able to heal the damage?

Finally, one of the great things about the Thief is that there is no need for any specific secondary ability score. If you choose, you can put a substantial number of points into Constitution, thereby becoming a bit harder to kill.

 

[Obryn]

Ok, so in a low level discussion about Thieves vs. Rangers, you pull in TWO Paragon level feats (Called Shot and Prime Quarry) to illustrate that the extremely subpar and mostly worthless Prime Shot can indeed be worthwhile by level 13.

Got it.

No - you said Prime Shot was perfectly useless. I said (and I quote)

At Heroic, sure, it's kinda balls. As soon as a Ranger or Warlock hits Paragon, Prime Shot goes from a weak feature to a class-defining one.

I don't think there's anything wrong with taking the long view of class features, within reason. Many games make it to Paragon level, and a character who wants both of those feats can make Prime Shot awesome by Level 11, not 13. (Take a feat, retrain for the other.)

An effective archer ranger at first level like the discussion here?

Or some Paragon level archer ranger after you ton him and his allies up with a boatload of features?

Absolutely at Heroic, depending who he's working with - but especially if he's working with a Fighter or a Knight. Since we're talking about Core Rangers, let's go with Hunter Style. That gives you a nice +4 AC vs. OAs. Taking the Mark into account, that brings it up to a +6 vs. that OA. This is all without taking any feats.

If I'm making two attacks, I think it's hugely worth risking an attack at -6 to get +1 to-hit on both of my shots. What's more, I can stretch this to a +3 pretty easily by flanking - which I generally can't get at range. This isn't even taking into account how my Fighter/Knight buddy is going to get a free swat in as well before their OA even fires. By doing it, I'm making myself more effective, making the Fighter more effective, and killing the bad guy even quicker.

If I'm a Ranger without a Defender, then the calculation changes.

-O