D&D 5E So 5th edition is coming soon

[KarinsDad]

Unfortunately, those things you like are inimical to 4e's design. 4e deliberately scaled back on options for strategic planning and for player empowerment.

I agree with the first.

I disagree with the second. Player empowerment in many ways is at a greater level than it has ever been. For example, the number of options for the development of each PC is much greater than 3.5 ever was. PCs have fewer charged items and spell casters have fewer spells, but the sheer number of options overall has increased.

4e wanted to move the power to establish the narrative structure for the game back firmly into the DM's hands. Allowing the players to purchase items that "let them have 15 encounters in a row" is nonsensical in 4e's paradigm.

What do you consider the narrative structure of the game? To me, it has nothing to do with whether the PCs have 3 encounters in a row or 15 encounters in a row. Unless he has some type of time based encounter layout, why would a DM care if the PCs got through 4, 6, 8, or 10 encounters before having to take an extended rest? With unusual dice rolls, the DM's plan of a 7 encounter day could end up being any of these.

If there's a need for 15 encounters in a row, the players and DM should be collaborating on a way to explain that.

Why?

The number of encounters per day is merely a metagame side effect of how the rules were written and how resources are typically used. It should have little if any in character correlation.

PC Warlock: "Remember team, the world revolves around 5 encounter days and this is a pretty big place. At least 200 feet by 200 feet. So, be prepared to be in here for 3 days."

Err, huh?

And, there are a lot of literary and even real life examples of heroes fighting for the better part of an entire day. Why is 15 less than one minute encounters in a row (or a day) so astonishing? It's only because that is what the designers limited the rules to.

Being "prepared for any scenario" is another way of saying that you have the ability to bypass encounters that were meant to be challenging.

No, it means being prepared.

If my PC crafts a Potion of Water Breathing and another PC doesn't, it means that my PC is prepared to go underwater for an extended period of time and he isn't prepared for that.

It doesn't mean that it will allow me to necessarily bypass an encounter. Course, a Potion of Water Breathing doesn't exist in 4E.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I agree with the first.

I disagree with the second. Player empowerment in many ways is at a greater level than it has ever been. For example, the number of options for the development of each PC is much greater than 3.5 ever was. PCs have fewer charged items and spell casters have fewer spells, but the sheer number of options overall has increased.

And narrowed. It isn't that there aren't more choices, and PHB1 certainly gave most of the tools to the players. So they occupy a fairly narrow spread of power. Nothing as astonishing as a Staff of the Magi or a Helm of Brilliance. Those of necessity are DM arbitrated. WotC could never bring themselves to make those items before. Maybe they will now, maybe that is why they pulled the magic emporium book. Maybe we'll get a whole new view of items. That is something I'd like. Could also be why they never really looked closely at existing items rarity. Why waste the time if you are just going to release a new thing that basically says "Forget those old items, use THESE instead...". I mean it can just be a suggestion at that (all 'rules' are).

What do you consider the narrative structure of the game? To me, it has nothing to do with whether the PCs have 3 encounters in a row or 15 encounters in a row. Unless he has some type of time based encounter layout, why would a DM care if the PCs got through 4, 6, 8, or 10 encounters before having to take an extended rest? With unusual dice rolls, the DM's plan of a 7 encounter day could end up being any of these.



Why?

The number of encounters per day is merely a metagame side effect of how the rules were written and how resources are typically used. It should have little if any in character correlation.

PC Warlock: "Remember team, the world revolves around 5 encounter days and this is a pretty big place. At least 200 feet by 200 feet. So, be prepared to be in here for 3 days."

Err, huh?

And, there are a lot of literary and even real life examples of heroes fighting for the better part of an entire day. Why is 15 less than one minute encounters in a row (or a day) so astonishing? It's only because that is what the designers limited the rules to.

Well sure, and the DM should absolutely pace his adventures. Some are tough throughout and may be few encounters, others can have easier encounters, but long ones, or lots of areas where there are say a few minions and a standard (half an encounter worth of monsters) and then another half that show up later, etc. Really, you could run 10 or 15 encounters for a day, but you'll just be stretching things out. Get to the tense part(s).

No, it means being prepared.

If my PC crafts a Potion of Water Breathing and another PC doesn't, it means that my PC is prepared to go underwater for an extended period of time and he isn't prepared for that.

It doesn't mean that it will allow me to necessarily bypass an encounter. Course, a Potion of Water Breathing doesn't exist in 4E.

and what do you know, Dragon 393 comes through...

Potion of Water Walking
Level 4 Common

A tiny clay pot holds within it a malodorous glop, which, if choked down in one swallow, grants the consumer the power to walk over water.
Price: 40 gp
Potion

Power (Consumable): Minor Action. After drinking this potion, you do not sink into the surface of any liquid (unless you choose to do so). This effect lasts until the end of the encounter or for 5 minutes, whichever comes first. You can move across calm liquid as if it were solid ground. Rough or stormy liquid counts as difficult terrain. When moving across the surface of a liquid, you are in contact with it as you would be in contact with the ground. If the liquid is moving, you move with it as if the ground moved beneath you.

Anyway, nobody is saying there couldn't be a LOT of much better stuff either. Since the PCs now can't just make every possible item you can have all kinds of uncommon potions etc. Really, I think all these changes help a lot if you go with the 4e plan. lol. Seriously though, healing potions could be fixed for those who desire by any sort of extra uncommon/rare potions you want. Heck, do it random distribution if you want.

And a resourceful character can get ingredients to make some of these potions too, now and then. Give out potion components and let the PCs have a choice of making a few select brews. Then let them devise some of their own. This is what should really happen with the game, this stuff can all go into the digital tools and just let people pick who's stuff they want.

 

[triqui]

Latest Mike Mearl's Legend and Lore keep shaking some of 4e foundations. I stand in my initial thought. The cogs of 4e have started to wheel. I don't know if it's going to be out in 2012, in 2013, in 2014 (hint: 40 years of D&D...), or in 2058, but they are working on it, right now.

4e took 3 years of develop, AFAIK

 

[KarinsDad]

Well sure, and the DM should absolutely pace his adventures. Some are tough throughout and may be few encounters, others can have easier encounters, but long ones, or lots of areas where there are say a few minions and a standard (half an encounter worth of monsters) and then another half that show up later, etc. Really, you could run 10 or 15 encounters for a day, but you'll just be stretching things out. Get to the tense part(s).

Why can't all 10 or 15 be tense? You are so focused on how things work today that you cannot see how they might work better in 5E.

Seriously. What is wrong with a group of adventurers having 15 tougher adventures in a day based on the fact that the PCs themselves saved up their money and bought a bunch of charged items that allow them to continue on whereas normally, they could not.

Expensive charged items that did things like restore healing surges and restore Daily powers or just gave the PCs other capabilities.

It would take well written rules to get it properly balanced, but it opens the game up to other concepts like: we are in a different dimension where we are constantly on the move and if you sleep, you die.

and what do you know, Dragon 393 comes through...

A Potion of Water Walking is not a Potion of Water Breathing.

An entire segment of adventures (underwater) is very difficult to achieve. They threw the baby out with the bath water in quite a few ways.

 

[triqui]

Why can't all 10 or 15 be tense? You are so focused on how things work today that you cannot see how they might work better in 5E.

I fully agree with this sentence, but can't give you exp (have to spread and all of that)

 

[TwoSix]

Seriously. What is wrong with a group of adventurers having 15 tougher adventures in a day based on the fact that the PCs themselves saved up their money and bought a bunch of charged items that allow them to continue on whereas normally, they could not.

Nothing in the rules prevents that from happening now. What's prevented is the players deciding that they'll have 15 fights in a row because they bought 30 venti Potions of Restlessness.
As a DM, I don't want to (and shouldn't have to) plan out 15 encounters in a row on the off chance that's what my players want to do. If there's a narrative need for 15 encounters in a row, as a DM, I'll make sure they have the ability to do so.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

noone prevents you from using a water breathing ritual...

 

[KarinsDad]

Nothing in the rules prevents that from happening now. What's prevented is the players deciding that they'll have 15 fights in a row because they bought 30 venti Potions of Restlessness.
As a DM, I don't want to (and shouldn't have to) plan out 15 encounters in a row on the off chance that's what my players want to do. If there's a narrative need for 15 encounters in a row, as a DM, I'll make sure they have the ability to do so.

You keep talking about narrative. This really has nothing to do with narrative.

Do you never have a dungeon with 12 or more encounter rooms in it?

We do in our games. Not every plot line has that, but some do. Tomb of Horrors for example.

The only thing I am talking about is going into a large "dungeon" (e.g. getting caught on an island, being in another dimension, fighting through Moria, etc.) and never taking an extended rest. Why would you as DM care whether the PCs did that with 0, 1, or 2 extended rests? Why are you so wrapped up with the max number of encounters per day that the designers came up with as the only reasonable one?

One encounter in a day is reasonable.

15 encounters in a day is reasonable.

There is nothing wrong with the players making those types of decisions instead of the DM. It is their PCs after all. They are handcuffed by the rules as written and by how much the DM is willing to bend those rules via plot devices, but that doesn't mean that 15 encounters in a day is unreasonable. It only means that the 4E designers didn't take it into account.

 

[triqui]

I think Karinsdad hit the nail. 1 enounter per day, or 20, should be supported by the game. Ill daresay, it sshoukd be supported even without resorting to magic, expendables, or items. I made a thread a couple days ago in the official.forums about this. Designers should avoid the "this is the canon and supported way to play" mentality.

 

[KarinsDad]

noone prevents you from using a water breathing ritual...

Until you fall into a pit with water in it, suck at Athletics, and your heavy armor is weighing you down. A 10 minute ritual cast time in that circumstance is really tough, especially if you are not a ritual caster.

Course, some DMs wouldn't put that situation into the game system because the PC powers and abilities are designed to do damage, not help out in a drowning scenario.

This is the basic flaw of the ritual system. It severely limits the possibilities.

Solutions like I mentioned earlier like a "10 minute casting time ritual in a can" (be that a scroll, potion, power, or whatever) where the PC can gain the benefits of the ritual with a Standard Action would open the game up quite a bit.

It puts magic back in the word magic. With the 4E rules, the PCs are handcuffed pretty heavily as to cool magical effects in combat shy of "hit and do damage".