Player Control, OR "How the game has changed over the years, and why I don't like it"

[Dannager]

Was 4E designed the way it is partially to appease a new narcissistic 'Me' generation? The new generation that I keep reading about in articles that supposedly have an inflated sense of self, lack of empathy, are vain and materialistic, with an overblown sense of entitlement. This might explain 4E's push for fairness, balance, everyone feeling useful all the time, and rules not designed to be subject to interpretation in order to avoid conflicts and easily hurt feetlings.

From what I've read in this thread, it seems a little laughable to label the younger generation as having an inflated sense of self and overblown sense of entitlement.

 

[TheUltramark]

I've never met a group of players who would balk at the idea of one of them knocking a hydra prone if they had a power that said the target was knocked prone.

can you knock a snake prone?

 

[Dannager]

"it's on my sheet" is not an explanation of an action

No, but it gives that character the ability to perform said action.

also, every rule has exceptions!
can something without feet be tripped?

Yes. And the argument for why this is the case has been repeated about a million times.

can something already laying on the ground be knocked prone?

Something that is already prone cannot be knocked superprone. But (and, as above, I predict that making this argument will have absolutely no effect) the prone condition is a mechanical effect that is part of an abstract set of combat rules and does not necessarily translate to anything literal. A creature that is already "lying" on the ground (as an ooze would) can still be knocked prone, imparting the appropriate penalties and requiring an action to right itself, unless that creature is specifically immune to the prone condition.

can something that moves 2 already, be slowed?

Yes. This is important, as a monster may have certain powers that only function on a slowed target.

Furthermore, a slowed creature's speed cannot be raised above 2, while a creature whose speed is already 2 can raise it above that value through powers or external effects.

can bats be blinded?

It's a very common misconception that all bats echolocate. This is false. Only members of Microchiroptera echolocate. Megabats (Megachiroptera) navigate using more traditional senses, and all bats rely on sight to a certain extent, depending on environmental conditions.

This is actually a pretty interesting challenge for you to bring up, since, presumably, in bringing it up you're implying that you would not allow bats to become blinded in your own games. Ostensibly, because bats echolocate and thus don't need eyes. Except that many bats don't echolocate, so you could just as easily be creating an entirely unrealistic situation by making your arbitrary ruling that ignores the abstract nature of D&D combat.

But, to answer your question in a more straightforward way, yes, bats can be blinded. Some of them have blindsight, and therefore are not especially inconvenienced by the effect.

can a stone golem be petrified?

Yes.

 

[Dannager]

can you knock a snake prone?

Yes, you can.

In fact, you can even knock a snake swarm prone.

 

[TheUltramark]

Yes, you can.

In fact, you can even knock a snake swarm prone.

can I ask how you knock a snake prone? or will this anger you further?

 

[TheUltramark]

Something that is already prone cannot be knocked superprone. But (and, as above, I predict that making this argument will have absolutely no effect) the prone condition is a mechanical effect that is part of an abstract set of combat rules and does not necessarily translate to anything literal. A creature that is already "lying" on the ground (as an ooze would) can still be knocked prone, imparting the appropriate penalties and requiring an action to right itself, unless that creature is specifically immune to the prone condition.

so....
combat rules = abstract
powers rules = not to be tinkered with

if thats how your table plays, then more power to ya, as long as YOU have fun paying your way, God bless ya! Our table plays a little (or a lot) differently, and we have fun playing our way.

 

[Dannager]

can I ask how you knock a snake prone?

By affecting it in such a way that it suffers the penalties associated with the prone condition and must take an action to right itself.

It it helps you imagine it more easily, you could mentally rename "prone" to "significantly inconvenienced", and heck, that's something a snake could be!

The particulars of exactly how that occurs are up to you and your players.

or will this anger you further?

Smiley face gave you that impression, did it?

 

[Dannager]

so....
combat rules = abstract
powers rules = not to be tinkered with

The combat rules are abstract. The power rules ought not to be unilaterally messed with for arbitrary reasons.

 

[Thasmodious]

It it helps you imagine it more easily, you could mentally rename "prone" to "significantly inconvenienced", and heck, that's something a snake could be!

Significantly inconvenienced, heh, I like that. The point is that you're (theultramark) getting way to hung up on a single word and not imagining that the word could apply in a more broader sense. It does. The word prone is defined by the dictionary in a certain manner. In 4e D&D it is defined explicitly as granting combat advantage, getting a bonus to AC against ranged attacks, and taking a -2 to attack rolls.

Is it really hard to imagine how a snake could position itself so its harder to hit with an arrow, is easier to hit with a mace and not in a great position to attack? I'm thinking stretched out would do it. Snakes coil to strike, and a ball of snake is easier to shoot than a thin stick of snake. Now, can you imagine a PC "inconveniencing" a snake into such a position? If you do have trouble, watch any episode of The Crocodile Hunter ever.

 

[Dannager]

Now, can you imagine a PC "inconveniencing" a snake into such a position? If you do have trouble, watch any episode of The Crocodile Hunter ever.

Animal Planet is contributing a lot to this thread. I learned about bats from that network, and now The Crocodile Hunter is helping with immersion.