I don't get the dislike of alignment as a character-building concept

[Hussar]

I don't know about you, but my table works rather like EN World - if you cannot discuss the game as mature, controlled adults, I'm not really interested in having you around.

Thing is, it grinds the game to a halt. And, even mature adults can start getting pretty excited when you start talking about morality. That hits pretty darn close to a lot of issues. Now, if everyone at the table is comfortable with that, then fine. But, not all groups are comprised of years long friends who can talk about anything. Lots of groups know each other socially and that's about it.

So putting this great big argument bomb in the middle of the game has caused SO many problems at tables. Granted, I personally don't have a huge issue with alignment very often. But, having had a fairly rotating group of players for some time, I can really sympathise with not wanting this thing in the game.

My group now? Sure, no problem. It would work fine. Groups I've had in the past? Not so much.

 

[Pentius]

But that, "Your character wouldn't do that!" cry is *NOT* a mechanical issue. That's a player entitlement and roleplay issue - someone trying to impose a restriction on another player when the rules impose no such mechanical restriction.

I don't think we can reasonably say the mechanic is at fault when the problem is one of the people at the table making up new rules to get their way.

While not exactly a mechanical issue at that point, I think the cry of "Your character wouldn't do that!" has its roots quite clearly in the alignment mechanics. The 1e DMG is quite clear in the advice(which it goes on about for a page or so) that a DM should graph his players' alignments carefully, and demand adherence to these behaviors lest the player suffer the consequences(loss of a level and possibly more, depending on class). The advice more or less paints those who would choose one alignment but not stick to it as problem players who abuse the rules and hurt the game. I think that if a player is trying to tell another how to act based on alignment(whether he uses the dreaded "Your character wouldn't act that way!" or a functionally identical "You realize that that would be a ______ act, which could result in a shift in your alignment, right?") any entitlement he is showing is seeded and enforced by the book.

 

[Pentius]

I don't know about you, but my table works rather like EN World - if you cannot discuss the game as mature, controlled adults, I'm not really interested in having you around.

I find that gaming, as a whole, works a lot like internet message boards. The most reasonable, polite people can always turn into jerks if you discuss religion or politics. Or their gaming equivalents, alignment and edition preference.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I just think that this topic would make good reading.

 

[Jhaelen]

Alignments are a convenient short guideline for portraying npcs and monsters. For PCs they fall short and are just a sad excuse for actual personality traits. They also work poorly if you enjoy having your characters go through transitions.

 

[Aurumvorax]

Alignments are a convenient short guideline for portraying npcs and monsters. For PCs they fall short and are just a sad excuse for actual personality traits. They also work poorly if you enjoy having your characters go through transitions.

They work fine if a character goes through transitions but transitioning shouldn't be painless.

The books reinforced the DM tracking alignment shifts but not for minor transgressions. It even says people act out of character and that's fine. A lawful good person killing out of cold blood for revenge is a "transition" and they'll either rise above it or fall hard.

But really, alignment as a mechanic for players is pointless because even the most benevolent players are ruthless killers and unapologetic thieves. This is the nature of the game no matter what edition you play.

 

[Umbran]

Thing is, it grinds the game to a halt.

Failure to tell your players what your house rules are before starting play will have much the same result. And, you'd probably call a GM a bit dim if he or she didn't go over the house rules in detail, such that everyone understood before play began.

Interpretation of alignment is a house rule, and should be treated as such. If everyone understood how the GM was going to approach it, and agreed to that, the argument wouldn't happen.

I am not arguing that everyone needs to like alignment, or that it isn't perfectly valid to jettison it from your games. Go to! I merely point out that the common failures aren't mechanical.

 

[ACreepierFolklaw]

Its just personal taste of course but i find the cry of "but your character wouldn't do that" utterly tedious.
As a DM i try to encourage as little division between the characters and players that play them as possible. And as a player i want to ask myself what I would do in the situation, not a basic stranger. its all about the mary sue.

i guess i'm a little off topic.

 

[Elf Witch]

But really, alignment as a mechanic for players is pointless because even the most benevolent players are ruthless killers and unapologetic thieves. This is the nature of the game no matter what edition you play.

I don't buy this at all. Take the term ruthless killers. Do you consider soldiers or lawmen ruthless killers when they kill in the line of duty?

I usually play good characters and I don't kill except in self defense or to protect the innocent or helpless. There is a difference in killing monsters who are trying to kill you and killing everyone in the tavern.

As for looting it depends on if its is stealing. Going into an ancient dungeon and finding item is salvage. The people who owned are long dead.

Looting the bodies of monsters or fallen bad guys could be considered stealing or it could be looked at as payment depending on how the society views things like that. Medieval feudal societies didn't all necessarily look at looting as we do now. Often looting the dead was a form of payment.

So you can alignment in the game and have it make sense.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But really, alignment as a mechanic for players is pointless because even the most benevolent players are ruthless killers and unapologetic thieves.

Wrong.