Why do we have bandit scenarios?

to dismiss it entirely is to miss the forest for the trees -- or the adventure for the encounter, in this case.

<snip>

Early D&D arguably had, in some instances, a "dungeon survival" element of challenge, with scarce resources that needed to be used intelligently for victory. Fights took place in a broader game of managing the scarce hit points and healing spells the party had.
I'm not dismissing it. I'm well aware of it, and remember reading injunctions from Lewis Pulsipher, Gygax and other about how the "skilled player" will play that sort of game.

My only point is that it's not something I particularly enjoy. I don't enjoy it now, and I didn't enjoy it in the 1980s either. Back then, when I was under the impression that it was the "right way" to play, I tried to design and GM scenarios in the Gygax/Pulsipher mode. But to the extent that those scenarios were any fun for me and my players, it was because of the story/thematic elements that operated independently of, or even in spite of, the "dungeon survival" aspect.

Oriental Adventures was something which, in its presentation of the game and how it would be played, clearly departed from the "dungeon survival" approach, and it was in GMing of my first OA game in 1986 that I began to develop what has remained my basic approach to GMing over the past 25 years - character-focused scenarios against a detailed historical and mythical backdrop.

Also, as a bit of an aside, I think that - unlike both OD&D and AD&D - Basic D&D (or at least Moldvay Basic) doesn't have quite the same "dungeon survival"/"skilled player" vibe. Or, at least, it doesn't come through as strongly. (For example, the scenario design advice in Moldvay Basic doesn't make dungeon exploration as high a priority as Gygax's advice to players at the end of his PHB.) Part of the "right way to play" vibe of Gygax and Pulsipher got its force, at least for me as a young player, because it seemed to be part and parcel of upgrading from Basic/Expert to the more serious world of AD&D.
 

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Also, as a bit of an aside, I think that - unlike both OD&D and AD&D - Basic D&D (or at least Moldvay Basic) doesn't have quite the same "dungeon survival"/"skilled player" vibe. Or, at least, it doesn't come through as strongly. (For example, the scenario design advice in Moldvay Basic doesn't make dungeon exploration as high a priority as Gygax's advice to players at the end of his PHB.) Part of the "right way to play" vibe of Gygax and Pulsipher got its force, at least for me as a young player, because it seemed to be part and parcel of upgrading from Basic/Expert to the more serious world of AD&D.

Actually all of the scenario design advice from Moldvay was dungeon focused. Those same basic principles could be applied to any sort of setting but the first basic set, levels 1-3 were all about the dungeon, in one form or another, as a general setting.

The dungeon survival vibe was very much alive in basic D&D. There were just less fiddly rules for everything including the survival stuff. There were still single digit hit point PCs venturing into dangerous places, save or die traps & poisons and other nastiness. As an added hurdle, clerics didn't even get a single spell until 2nd level and there were no bonus spells.

I don't see AD&D being "harder" in this regard, just a bit more rules intensive.
 

pemerton said:
My only point is that it's not something I particularly enjoy. I don't enjoy it now, and I didn't enjoy it in the 1980s either.

Fair enough. :) Out of curiosity, have you played and enjoyed survival games in other media/settings? Sort of, is it the style of game you're not into, or the particular implementation of early D&D?

Oriental Adventures was something which, in its presentation of the game and how it would be played, clearly departed from the "dungeon survival" approach, and it was in GMing of my first OA game in 1986 that I began to develop what has remained my basic approach to GMing over the past 25 years - character-focused scenarios against a detailed historical and mythical backdrop.

I don't think this is necessarily incompatible with a survivalist approach, myself, but I can see how a constant pressure would necessarily force some compromises.

For me, the positive of the approach is two main things:

  1. "Dungeon Survival" focuses on the adventure as the main unit of play rather than the encounter. This more naturally fits with the pace of the game, the rise and fall of action, the use of climactic encounters, and other things that a single encounter is too small a timeframe to contain. When seen as a mechanical model, the use of resources over a longer time frame than a single encounter provides for a satisfying pattern of active time and down time that is a rewarding psychological state to achieve. A game that is BAM BAM BAM all the time becomes tedius, especially over the longer time-frames a D&D game usually occupies.
  2. "Dungeon Survival" gives an element of challenge and strategy to the adventure as a whole, where it matters what in-character actions you perform, rather than simply what attacks and defenses you make. It enables failure without TPK, and success without total success. It emphasizes at-table play instead of pre-table character creation.

It's possible to get these effects without a "dungeon survival" kind of atmosphere or mechanic, and it's possible to have completely enjoyable games without these effects, but I think for D&D, these effects are very valuable things, and need to be re-emphasized. So I'm all for bringing back the bandit scenario. ;)
 

Taking a bit of my own advice - the kids will be meeting a major bad guy Saturday after next. In media res, the bad guy's coach and four is being chased by two dozen mounted bandits (demobbed dragoons), with the BBEG being the passenger, not the driver, and down to a single fireball. He does have a contingency spell set up for teleport if he takes more than eight points of damage. (Yeah, eight - brave he is not.)

It can go any way - the PCs will have the chase coming at them up the road. The bandits are likely to ignore them, if they get off the road, in which case the chase will run right past them, and on down the road..

If they move to engage the brigands then the BBEG will try to fireball past the party. If he can do so without hitting any PCs then he will. If he has to hit a few PCs, then, oh well....

If they get off the road then the BBEG will fireball past them, not worrying about hitting anybody.

If they move to engage the coach, then the fireball will go straight at them.

No matter what, the coach will not stop unless engaged, or a disastrously bad roll is made by the driver. No please, thank you, or what have you. Just a 'hello, I must be going'. :p

The Auld Grump
 

Out of curiosity, have you played and enjoyed survival games in other media/settings? Sort of, is it the style of game you're not into, or the particular implementation of early D&D?
I haven't. It's a long time since I've played any Traveller, and never as much of it as I've played D&D and other fantasy games, but to the extent that Traveller can take on a survival vibe I tend to find that tedious too. And I've never had players who are into it.

I don't think this is necessarily incompatible with a survivalist approach, myself, but I can see how a constant pressure would necessarily force some compromises.

<snip>

"Dungeon Survival" focuses on the adventure as the main unit of play rather than the encounter.

<snip>

"Dungeon Survival" gives an element of challenge and strategy to the adventure as a whole, where it matters what in-character actions you perform, rather than simply what attacks and defenses you make. It enables failure without TPK, and success without total success. It emphasizes at-table play instead of pre-table character creation.
I like the encounter as the main focus of the "accounting" elements of RPG play - it makes record keeping simpler (though keeping track of dailies, action points etc for my group still causes issues sometimes, especially because there is a tendency for my players to print out a new character sheet to bring along to a session rather than to keep track of the old one that had all that resource stuff marked up on it in pencil).

I like the adventure to unfold primarily through changes in fictional position than changes in mechanical position (though sometimes these overlap - eg recovering an artefact from a ruined temple is both a fictional and a mechanical change). I find that once the players are invested in that fictional position, it matters a great deal what actins are performed, and it enables failure and success along the lines you describe, without long term resource management being all that important. (Unless you want to talk metaphorically about reputations, relationships, geographic location, metaphysical location, etc as "resources". I personally don't find that metaphor very helpful or illuminating.)

One thing I like about 4e combat is that it makes choices matter (ie tactics as well as build seem important, at least for me and my players) and that it creates scope for those choices to feed nicely into the fictional positioning. This is in part because I find 4e combat relatively forgiving over a wide range of choices - I don't feel any pressure towards narrow optimal paths - and in part because I find 4e characters to very naturally propel themselves into the fictional situation once they start doing things in combat (with the possible excpetion of the archer ranger, who can very much just stand at the side and pling arrows - I have a small and steady group, so haven't seen a particularly wide range of builds in play, but this one seems to me to be noticeably weaker in this aspect of its design than the others that I have seen).

If I wan't GMing 4e I'd probably be GMing HARP or Burning Wheel. Both of those do have longer term resource management - HARP has spell points and lengthy natural healing, and BW has the latter. For the same reasons that get discussed in relation to 3E wizards, nova-ing and the 15 minute day, I'm not the biggest fan of RM/HARP-style spell points. But long term healing doesn't both me per se, but - especially in BW, which doesn't have magical healing alternatives - would require a change in pacing from that which 4e favours. I wouldn't envisage long term healing changing the overall dynamics of choice and consequence, however. It would just be another element in the mix.

the use of resources over a longer time frame than a single encounter provides for a satisfying pattern of active time and down time that is a rewarding psychological state to achieve. A game that is BAM BAM BAM all the time becomes tedius, especially over the longer time-frames a D&D game usually occupies.
This is interesting, and perhaps gets closer to the issue of "filler" encounters. These days I play fortnightly for sessions of 4 hours or so. But even when I used to play weekly for sessions of 5 hours or so, I never felt the tedium you describe. I find that the spacing between sessions, plus the natural spacing that is introduced by food breaks, toilet breaks, resolving mechanical questions, dividing loot, remembering who said what to whom last session in the key political negotiation, etc, etc - all work to introduce the necessary downtime for the participants in the game, without any need to replicate that downtime in the gameworld.

This produces situations of fictional absurdity, or at least fridge-logicality - for example, the gametime that has passed in my current 4e campaign is about two months, in which the PCs have risen from level 1 to 13 over 3 years of play. But the players don't have the feeling of emotional drain or jadedness that such an experience would produce in real life, precisely because for them all this stuff has happened over 3 years.

I see this as analogous to Marvel comics, which at least in the 70s and 80s would have a Chrismtas episode every year despite the fact that nothing like 12 months of action had taken place in the comics. It's a compromise between fictional time and real time, which (in my view at least) is harmless as long as no one at the table actually makes a point of it. And 4e in particular is fairly forgiving for this, because the looseness of fit between mechanics and fiction means that there is no need, in the fiction, to suppose that in 2 months of adventuring the PCs have quintupled (or whatever) their physical and magical prowess. The only change in the fiction that the mechanics mandate being recognised is the gaining of their paragon paths.
 

Actually all of the scenario design advice from Moldvay was dungeon focused.
Yes. But they weren't "dungeon suvrival" focused. Many of them, like lost cities and races, hidden shrines, rescue scenarios and the like are much more "story" or thematically focused.

In the AD&D PHB, Gygax talks about the importance of preparation, scouting, identifying targets, then pulling out, planning, and going in to hit those targets in a methodical fashion. This is what I take [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION] to mean by "dungeon survival". It is certainly the approach that I associate in my mind with Gygax, Lewis Pulsipher and the general mega-dungeon orientation of early D&D.

Whereas Moldvay is focused on scenario-dungeons, not mega-dungeons, and the goals and targets are typically going to be inherent in the scenario, not formulated by the players as part of the course of play, which is what Gygax assumes in his discussion in the PHB. And when you look at the sample adventure and examples of play in Moldvay Basic, with Morgan Ironwolf et al, you don't see Gygaxian play (or, at least, I don't). The players aren't systematically scouting, evaluating, planning and then targetting. The dynamic is closer to that of a story - they have a thematic/story goal which they are trying to achieve, and the dungeon is simply a backdrop to that, not itself the object of emotional concern.

The dungeon survival vibe was very much alive in basic D&D. There were just less fiddly rules for everything including the survival stuff. There were still single digit hit point PCs venturing into dangerous places, save or die traps & poisons and other nastiness. As an added hurdle, clerics didn't even get a single spell until 2nd level and there were no bonus spells.
Again, this isn't what I hear when I hear dungeon survival. I mean, Rolemater at low levels, and Runequest at any "level", involve real possibilities of instant death and nasty traps. But they've never suggested "dungeon survival" (at least to me). It's the Gyaxian/Pulsiferian vibe that I feel is absent from Moldvay Basic, but very present in the AD&D rulebooks - especially the closing section of the PHB, and the discussions on designing and refereeing a dungeon in the DMG.
 

The ENWorld frontpage led me to this discussion of bandit encounters.

Returning for a while to the blog post quoted in your OP...

Necromancers said:
The bandits in Morrowind, however, had something that bandits in D&D (at least in my experience) rarely have: names. Maybe it was different for you, but when I was last using bandits in my D&D game (and that was some time ago) there were exactly 5 types of bandits: bandit (a level 1 warrior), bandit sergeant (this was the rogue), bandit archer (same as bandit sergeant but armed with a shortbow instead of a masterwork dagger), bandit mage (this was a bard equipped with alchemist’s fire), and a leader (who may have had a name and was a level 3 fighter/rogue who dual-wielded something).

The last thing one should consider when making a bandit adventure is how many bandits you need. This is where all the stuff about those named bandits comes in, if you were wondering, since the fewer bandits you have, the more detailed those bandits can be, which could make for much more fascinating bandit adventures than the ones I remember from back when. If instead you have a lot of bandits, you get more warm bodies to throw at your PCs, but have to compromise a little on the details for each individual bandit in order to stay sane as a DM. Besides, the more guys you have, the less those little details are going to matter to your players, who would eventually get overwhelmed with the raw amount of flavor information and get bored or flavor-desensitized, so that when you create a scene where you really want to capture their imagination, they just won't be able to appreciate it as well. To help you figure out how to best manage your bandit flavor, I have created a handy little chart.

One trick that DMs can use (and pregen adventures can definitely help with) is the 'sample NPC'.

Basically, in addition to statting up a bunch of different bandits (the five types listed above are mostly fine), you also give fluff for a number of individual bandits but don't include these characters with the particular groups encountered. Instead, whenever the PCs interact with one of the groups, you grab one of the sample NPCs from the list, and use that character as the 'face' of the group.

So, the PCs encounter a bunch of bandits, and engage them in conversation. At this point, one of the previously-nameless bandits becomes... Thomas, a young man who tried his luck in the army but panicked the first time he saw combat and deserted. Thomas is a decent lad in a tough spot, who would like nothing better than to return home. He's then the guy who does almost all of the talking with the PCs.

Later, the PCs ambush a group of bandits, driving some off, but taking a captive. They interrogate their captive, who ceases to be just another nameless bandit, and instead becomes... Durden, a blacksmith prone to alcoholism and violence. After murdering his wife in a rage, he fled town and became a bandit, a profession he loves as he can finally revel in his brutal nature.

And so on.

That way, if you have 40 bandits, you probably have about 8 encounters, so you can provide 8-10 sample NPCs. That way, the PCs can interact with the bandits, the DM always has a named and detailed NPC ready, and the players will never know the difference!

(The sample NPCs would be in addition to the specific individuals named and detailed for their role in the adventure, of course.)
 


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