Monk or Assassin, Which do you Dislike?

[marelion]

I don`t really think that the D&D monk is tied to eastern mythology. I mean, sutre, there are his special weapons in 3E like the Kama or the Shuriken but what keeps the monk from being a western-style brawler? Nobody forces you to pick weapons of asian origin and call yourself "Sensei Shiguero Iyamoto".

My current monk is a halfling from Baldur`s Gate. He`s had a hard time and accordingly has fallen into bad company. He joined a gang of halfling thugs and subsequently learned how to empty the pockets of the passers-by and dish out lots of hurt to them on the rare occasions he got noticed. Since he couldn`t bring up enough money to bribe the city guards into loking away from his weapons and petty theft he had to rely on the power of his fists and kicks and the natural athleticism of the halflings. Et voilà, here we have the quintessential features of a D&D monk and (regarding the fact D&D is still a heroic fantasy game) a plausible story how he aqquired a certain degree of melee prowess even without formal monastic training. He can fight barehanded, he has learned how to disengage from melee (after all, he had to escape from the guards more than once), he is faster than most elves and he has the agility to stay out of harm`s way.

I tend to think of classes as offerings of flavourfull collections of game mechanics. When I skimp through the PHB I take a look at the classes that grant access to the powers I would like my character to posess and care about the 'official flavour' later. There is definetely more than one way of skinning the cat. A 4E rogue might just as well be a Cormyrean scout of noble birth who keeps a close leye on the borders to Sembia in order to help his father fight off Shadovar spies. His fighting style probably is not all that different from the scum they lock up in Wheloon, so he can share a mechanical base with them (i.e. be a member of the same class)while flavorwise being an antithesis.

 

[gamerprinter]

Those are good ways to rationalize the monk in a Euro-medieval-fantasy world. But they do feel like rationalizations, in that they are oddly specific, and therefore belie the fact that the class was inspired by a decidedly non-Western source.

Or to put it another way: you guys are saying, "It's not a Shaolin martial artist. It's a member of a monastic order that fights unarmed and unarmored and is aided by a host of supernatural psycho-physical powers." That's in the neighborhood of "It's not a duck; it's a waterfowl that quacks."

But you're trying to rationalize it to the limitation of the designers who created the class. Just because they tried to give it an eastern bent, it's just a guy skilled in unarmed combat and through some magical means he gains a few enhancements to abililty as he levels up.

Nobody says you have to accept a player who wants to use the monk class - it's your campaign, allow or disallow, it's up to you. I'm just saying don't purposely limit yourself to the designers intent. It's just a class with some mechanical options that differ from a fighter, rogue or wizard.

Using Pathfinder, you could do this as an archetype and replace all the Ki magic stuff with mundane skill bonuses, feats, other abilities that don't feel like Kwai Chang Cain. Create a brawler that gains dodge bonuses that level up in close quarters combat, allow him to use bottles and other random items for weapons. Use the ki mechanic to grant bonuses in combat, movement, special combinations, knock out punches. Borrow the drunken rager, and grant bonuses to brawling when drinking or piss drunk (and appropriate penalties).

It's the designers calling it a duck, I see a cat.

 

[Greg K]

If you can remove vampire manta rays from your home game you can remove monks and assassins.

exactly.

 

[Greg K]

My two disappointments with the 3e Monk
1. I wanted something like the OA Shaman
2. In a game that gave the fighter a lot of customizability, they did not do the same for a monk.

 

[1Mac]

I guess if you are running a straight European style setting it won't fit well.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I prefer.

But you're trying to rationalize it to the limitation of the designers who created the class.

That seems to be a reasonable place to start!

Just because they tried to give it an eastern bent, it's just a guy skilled in unarmed combat and through some magical means he gains a few enhancements to abililty as he levels up.

In other words, it's a duck!

I get how reskinning works, believe me. And some classes lend themselves to it very well. The PF ninja, for example, makes a pretty good Western-style assassin, with only a few powers that are out of place. But my point is no matter how you dress it up, quick-unarmed-mystical-fighter guy is going to seem very kung fu, at least to me.

Using Pathfinder, you could do this as an archetype and replace all the Ki magic stuff with mundane skill bonuses, feats, other abilities that don't feel like Kwai Chang Cain. Create a brawler that gains dodge bonuses that level up in close quarters combat, allow him to use bottles and other random items for weapons. Use the ki mechanic to grant bonuses in combat, movement, special combinations, knock out punches. Borrow the drunken rager, and grant bonuses to brawling when drinking or piss drunk (and appropriate penalties).

It's the designers calling it a duck, I see a cat.

Oh, I've totally thought about doing something like this (using flurry-of-blows and a few movement-based powers to make a speedy swashbuckler type). I'm all for cutting up classes and reassembling them into something new. But in this case it is something new and un-monk-like that you've assembled. To extend the metaphor even further, you've swapped the bill with whiskers, webbed feet with paws, and the feathery butt with a tail. No wonder it looks like a cat now!

 

[Thunderfoot]

Both.
Neither really meshed in the world of AD&D parties. Not to say that I hated either on but they weren't appropriate for me. The Assassin was a great NPC and a wonderful adversary and with the glut of NPC classes that were released in Dragon I Think there could have been a separate hardbound book of NPC classes, with this one on the first page.

And once the Oriental Adventures came out the monk had a place that it truly belonged. Before, it just felt goofy, especially if there were no other Asian style folks running around the game world.

As primary classes for a European based game, nah. But both found a place in other aspects of my game.