4E Burnout - What to do next?

[Mercurius]

I just got home from our twice-monthly 4E D&D game and am thinking we're approaching a bit of a crossroads. By way of explaining the context, I DMed the group for the first two years and another guy has taken over for the last six months or so. We are now up to 15th level; we don't have a meta-plot and are currently running through Demon Queen's Enclave.

The current DM drove me home tonight and expressed a feeling of annoyance about many "4Eisms" which I generally share. We talked about magic items, grindy combat, imbalance between striker and non-striker damage, tactical mastery benefiting those who "get it" and penalizing those who don't, emphasis on combat in general, regimented combat with all actions funneled into powers rather than improvised, and perhaps especially the annoyance of all of the things you have to keep track of in 4E combat--conditions in particular.

Basically we both came to a point where we decided that we wanted a change, either a different game/edition or maybe just a different approach to 4E. I'd love to jump into 5E, but that's at least a year away. My co-Dm is going to continue for the next 4-6 sessions but then I'm going to take over again, which means I have 2-3 months to figure out what to do next. If I do DM 4E I'm going to start again with 1st level characters in a different campaign that gives me the opportunity to change a few things (e.g. less magic items, but more powerful and interesting ones; some way to encourage improvisational play; etc).

We're willing to try something different, maybe a different game or even genre altogether, but we'd also like a D&D experience that harkens back to a more "old school" approach--a simpler game, more improvisation and DM's adjudication vs. powers and rulebook checking, etc. Basically we want a D&D experience heavy on exploration, magic, lost histories and mysteries, interesting--but not overly complex--combats, etc. Given our group and the time that we can play--twice a month at most--I don't foresee a plot-heavy game. Some plot is good, but on the wargame-to-thespian spectrum of gaming, we're far closer to wargaming (and "old school D&D") than we are into the more thespian aspects of gaming (acting, character development, etc).

Any thoughts? Suggestions? I've had a few beers so I'm not sure if my situation is coming across in a clear-headed way, but I wanted to throw this out there before I hit the sack to see if I could reel in some replies to read in the morning.

Thanks!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

My response to something like this is "take a break"- everyone needs one, even from things they enjoy.

I had to take a break from GMing for a few years. I had hit a creative wall with GMing FRPGs, and few people in our group enjoy anything but FRPGs.

If it wasn't for our group's current 3.5Ed game being on hiatus because that guy needed a break, we wouldn't be playing 4Ed at all. Someone in the group stepped up and said he'd run a campaign, and voila! And those who don't like 4Ed at all have been taking a break from the group to do things like try hockey.

So...let's say you're just looking for a different RPG to try.

Let's assume you want to stick with FRPGs, just for argument's sake. There are lots of good ones.

My personal prejudice- and thus recommendation- towards HERO now shows up, and use it to runa fantasy game. Yes, it's a math-y game...in PC gen, but after that, everything you need is on the sheet in front of the player. You might never open the book during play.

Why HERO? Because with it, you can play an amalgam fantasy campaign culling the best kinds of stuf from all editions of D&D. Someone who wants a Vancian caster can play one right alongside an AEDU Warlock.

Strictly speaking, all you need is the core book (3Ed-5th revised) or books for 6th. Other books- Ultimate Martial Artist, Fantasy HERO, etc.- would add spa few additional things you'd like and would save you the hassle of starting out everything yourself.

And the Pre-6th books are pretty cheap.

Bonus: if you like the game, you can try it for other genres...supers, of course, sci-fi...whatever.

 

[Jacob Marley]

My group was in a similar situation a couple of months ago. We were burned out on the rules system we were using and wanted a change of pace. For a couple of months we would talk privately to each other about being ready to start something new, but hadn't sat down as a group and discussed the issue. Instead we trudged along with the campaign for another five or six sessions. That was a mistake. Our enthusiasm for the game was gone but we continued out of a sense of obligation rather than one of enjoyment.

So, my advice to you would be that if you are at a point with the game where you are feeling burned out, sit down with the whole group and talk it out. If everyone (or most everyone) is feeling that way, then there really is no point continuing for X more sessions. Playing out of obligation is not worth it; playing out of enjoyment is.

 

[Connorsrpg]

Being in nearly the same situation about 1 year ago, I could not recommend Savage Worlds more strongly. Love it...and this is from a guy who for 20+ years has generally shied away from other systems with the excuse, "I hardly get time to play at all, so I don't need this time divided between systems". Anyway, I read the 'Making of Savage Worlds' PDF and was an instant convert.

I now own most settings for the game, have converted a couple of dnd campaigns...and still don't have enough time to actually play these regularly

 

[Mark CMG]

I'd love to jump into 5E, but that's at least a year away.

Sign up for the 5R playtest.

 

[S'mon]

I'm loving my 1e AD&D Yggsburgh online game with pretty hardcore Gygaxian sandboxing, as a counterpoint to the two 4e D&D campaigns I'm running.

I also think the Pathfinder Beginner Box looks great, fantastic value, an oddly old school meets 3e feel with 4e type presentation, using it would be a good way to cleanse your palate.

For 4e, I think the secret is to be very wary of published adventures! Especially the long ones. You need to keep the game as open as possible; 4e combat works best when it's significant but rare (!). I halve monster hp and typically have mostly over-level 'spike' encounters as the default, so PC survival is at risk. For published adventures I recommend cutting out filler encounters, opening it out to allow alternative approaches, and generally a lot of adaptation. Always try to avoid the linear string of routine 1-2 hour battles.

 

[S'mon]

So, my advice to you would be that if you are at a point with the game where you are feeling burned out, sit down with the whole group and talk it out. If everyone (or most everyone) is feeling that way, then there really is no point continuing for X more sessions. Playing out of obligation is not worth it; playing out of enjoyment is.

Yeah - maybe play 1 wrap-up session with a climactic battle and denouement, not trudging through 4-5.

 

[zlorf]

How about d20 game or pathfinder? Both rule sets are online.
I enjoyed 4e after playing/DMing 3.5 for 8+ years, it was good to play something different even though the majority of the group whinged about the rule set and have now gone back to 3.5.

Cheers
Z

I just got home from our twice-monthly 4E D&D game and am thinking we're approaching a bit of a crossroads. By way of explaining the context, I DMed the group for the first two years and another guy has taken over for the last six months or so. We are now up to 15th level; we don't have a meta-plot and are currently running through Demon Queen's Enclave.

The current DM drove me home tonight and expressed a feeling of annoyance about many "4Eisms" which I generally share. We talked about magic items, grindy combat, imbalance between striker and non-striker damage, tactical mastery benefiting those who "get it" and penalizing those who don't, emphasis on combat in general, regimented combat with all actions funneled into powers rather than improvised, and perhaps especially the annoyance of all of the things you have to keep track of in 4E combat--conditions in particular.

Basically we both came to a point where we decided that we wanted a change, either a different game/edition or maybe just a different approach to 4E. I'd love to jump into 5E, but that's at least a year away. My co-Dm is going to continue for the next 4-6 sessions but then I'm going to take over again, which means I have 2-3 months to figure out what to do next. If I do DM 4E I'm going to start again with 1st level characters in a different campaign that gives me the opportunity to change a few things (e.g. less magic items, but more powerful and interesting ones; some way to encourage improvisational play; etc).

We're willing to try something different, maybe a different game or even genre altogether, but we'd also like a D&D experience that harkens back to a more "old school" approach--a simpler game, more improvisation and DM's adjudication vs. powers and rulebook checking, etc. Basically we want a D&D experience heavy on exploration, magic, lost histories and mysteries, interesting--but not overly complex--combats, etc. Given our group and the time that we can play--twice a month at most--I don't foresee a plot-heavy game. Some plot is good, but on the wargame-to-thespian spectrum of gaming, we're far closer to wargaming (and "old school D&D") than we are into the more thespian aspects of gaming (acting, character development, etc).

Any thoughts? Suggestions? I've had a few beers so I'm not sure if my situation is coming across in a clear-headed way, but I wanted to throw this out there before I hit the sack to see if I could reel in some replies to read in the morning.

Thanks!

 

[IronWolf]

Taking a break as DannyAlcatraz suggested is always a decent idea if folks are facing burnout. That doesn't mean your group can't get together. Get together, watch a movie, play board games and such.

Or try running a mini-campaign in a completely different genre. Just a three to six session game in something outside your normal genre can be fun and give you a break from your normal genre of game.

 

[Mercurius]

My response to something like this is "take a break"- everyone needs one, even from things they enjoy.

Yeah, I hear you, but I don't think it is burnout from gaming altogether (reading back over what I wrote, I probably didn't communicate that well).

And, truth be told, as a group we're still enjoying the game, but it is more a matter of liking it rather than loving it. I'd like to get back to at least really liking it.

I had to take a break from GMing for a few years. I had hit a creative wall with GMing FRPGs, and few people in our group enjoy anything but FRPGs.

I had to take a break from DMing about six months ago, which is why the other fellow took over. I'm starting to feel that urge again, although it will be tricky scheduling preparation into my life as most of my free creative energy is going to writing a novel.

So whatever I run next, I want it to be require relatively little preparation--some is fine, but I'd prefer 1-3 hours between sessions, rather than 4+.

...HERO...

Thanks for the suggestion. HERO is actually a game I've never even owned, so I'm tempted to at least pick up a copy of the core rules. Which edition do you recommend?

That said, there are a few games that I'd probably give a shot to first, but I'd at least like to check it out.
[/QUOTE]

So, my advice to you would be that if you are at a point with the game where you are feeling burned out, sit down with the whole group and talk it out. If everyone (or most everyone) is feeling that way, then there really is no point continuing for X more sessions. Playing out of obligation is not worth it; playing out of enjoyment is.

As I said to Danny above, it is more a matter of ongoing mild-to-moderate frustrations with aspects of 4E play, and wanting to either make some tweaks or try something a bit different. But you're right: we should have a group discussion about "The Road Forward."

...Savage Worlds....

I've always been impressed by Savage Worlds and maybe it is worth a shot...

Sign up for the 5R playtest.

I did, but I'm assuming it will be some time before one will be able to run a full-fledged campaign with the rules. I imagine that they'll be sending out bits and pieces for people to try out rather than the core rules to start?

I also think the Pathfinder Beginner Box looks great, fantastic value, an oddly old school meets 3e feel with 4e type presentation, using it would be a good way to cleanse your palate.

I got this a couple weeks ago and am really tempted to give it a shot. I'm not sure how it will feel going from 4E to Pathfinder; I'm curious as to what I will miss, what it will feel like (it has been eight or nine years since I played 3.5). Maybe I'll start a separate thread about "4E to Pathfinder."

For 4e, I think the secret is to be very wary of published adventures! Especially the long ones. You need to keep the game as open as possible; 4e combat works best when it's significant but rare (!). I halve monster hp and typically have mostly over-level 'spike' encounters as the default, so PC survival is at risk. For published adventures I recommend cutting out filler encounters, opening it out to allow alternative approaches, and generally a lot of adaptation. Always try to avoid the linear string of routine 1-2 hour battles.

This is excellent advice and pretty much where I had come to in my DMing (it also led to a few character deaths, something that hasn't happened--or even come close to happening--with the new DM, which I think has taken a bit of the sense of danger and excitement out of combats for some at the table).

How about d20 game or pathfinder? Both rule sets are online.
I enjoyed 4e after playing/DMing 3.5 for 8+ years, it was good to play something different even though the majority of the group whinged about the rule set and have now gone back to 3.5.

See above. I'm thinking of this and plan on starting a thread about it.

Or try running a mini-campaign in a completely different genre. Just a three to six session game in something outside your normal genre can be fun and give you a break from your normal genre of game.

This is worth a shot. I'm tempted to run a short SWSE game for the fun of it.