Class Balance - why?

[billd91]

Gandalf is pretty wizardly (in my book, at least), but he can't do nearly anything. He can't fly or teleport - his best movement spells are his friendships with a really fast horse and with a giant eagle. (And the eagle friendship is clearly a "per session" ability at best.) His artillery ability is highly limited. He can't cast knock (rather, he runs through lists of magical passwords).

He doesn't do a lot of stuff we'd consider D&D wizardish... but that doesn't mean all of those capabilities are outside his ability. He uses some spells like fire seeds against goblins, fireball against wolves, he does something unknown that helps Bill the pony make it back to Tom Bombadil's place. We don't know he can't do a knock spell because the Hollin Gate may be resistant to any opening spell in any language.

Gandalf is operating in a significantly different environment to what most D&D characters operate in. We know he has to keep his cards pretty close to his chest because there are plenty of spies about and he wants to keep his movements secret as much as he can. As a result, we don't know how much he can't do versus chooses not to do.

I agree that radical transport magic is not part of the Middle Earth setting, though. So no teleports. And I wouldn't call flying with giant eagles anything close to being as useful as once a session. It's more like he's owed a few favors and happens to call them in.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

He doesn't do a lot of stuff we'd consider D&D wizardish... but that doesn't mean all of those capabilities are outside his ability. He uses some spells like fire seeds against goblins, fireball against wolves, he does something unknown that helps Bill the pony make it back to Tom Bombadil's place. We don't know he can't do a knock spell because the Hollin Gate may be resistant to any opening spell in any language.

Gandalf is operating in a significantly different environment to what most D&D characters operate in. We know he has to keep his cards pretty close to his chest because there are plenty of spies about and he wants to keep his movements secret as much as he can. As a result, we don't know how much he can't do versus chooses not to do.

I agree that radical transport magic is not part of the Middle Earth setting, though. So no teleports. And I wouldn't call flying with giant eagles anything close to being as useful as once a session. It's more like he's owed a few favors and happens to call them in.

Let's pretend for a moment that Gandalf actually is capable of all the 3E Wizard's feat (with a few exceptions, like Teleport, as you mention)

Why doesn't he use them? If I wanted to play Gandalf, what reason would I have not to throw Fireballs left and right, or Quickened Disintegrates, or whatever?

There is definitely no mechanical rule enforcing it. It's just a "story choice". Gandalf is casting only very few spells and often only weak and subtle spells because he wants to.

So basically, it is "balance by roleplaying". I like balance, but "balance by roleplaying" is not my method of choice.

But, let's take the onscreen or in-book Gandalf:
The fire seeds and fireballs you saw or read about - could you say wether they deal 10d6 fire damage or 3d6? Isn't Aragon fighting back the Nazgul with Torches (potentially only 1d6 fire damage)? Maybe the 4E 3d6 fireball is actually quite sufficient to model Gandalf, after all?
Why model stuff that we don't know if it even exist?

 

[pemerton]

Gandalf is operating in a significantly different environment to what most D&D characters operate in. We know he has to keep his cards pretty close to his chest because there are plenty of spies about and he wants to keep his movements secret as much as he can. As a result, we don't know how much he can't do versus chooses not to do.

Just adding to what [MENTION=710]Mustrum_Ridcully[/MENTION] said, if I want my game to give wizards the feel of Gandalf, why would I give them the ability to do stuff that Gandalf doesn't do (in terms of either quantity or quality)?

To get that "Gandalf could really pull something out in an emergency if he had to" vibe, you might also give a wizard PC some sort of "drop the veil" mechanic - at it's crudest, this could be:

If you want to do something miraculous - like win a fight with a Balrog and return from the heavens in reincarnated form - give your "drop the veil" token to your GM. You then achieve what you want. The GM, however, may subsequently return inflict a serious complication upon you and/or your allies, overriding the usual action resolution rules; s/he must then return the token to you.​

Maybe the GM spends the token to force Frodo's player to fail a will/corruption check when drying to drop the ring in Mount Doom.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I happen to be quoting pemerton, but this is applicable to several of the recent posts.

Just adding to what [MENTION=710]Mustrum_Ridcully[/MENTION] said, if I want my game to give wizards the feel of Gandalf, why would I give them the ability to do stuff that Gandalf doesn't do (in terms of either quantity or quality)?

To get that "Gandalf could really pull something out in an emergency if he had to" vibe, you might also give a wizard PC some sort of "drop the veil" mechanic - at it's crudest, this could be:

If you want to do something miraculous - like win a fight with a Balrog and return from the heavens in reincarnated form - give your "drop the veil" token to your GM. You then achieve what you want. The GM, however, may subsequently return inflict a serious complication upon you and/or your allies, overriding the usual action resolution rules; s/he must then return the token to you.​

Maybe the GM spends the token to force Frodo's player to fail a will/corruption check when drying to drop the ring in Mount Doom.

I think this is attempting to take the discussion in a straw man direction. The d&d wizard has never really shared anything more than a name and a pointy hat with gandalf. There are middle earth RPGs that attempt to mimic the way magic is used in the books, d&d just doesn't do that.

For an effective discussion why not talk about any of the hundreds of other fantasy magicians in print, almost all of whom would provide a more useful basis of discussion?

Surely that would be worth the effort, eh?

 

[kimble]

Two cents,

Let me remember you that Gandalf wasn´t:
a) Human;
b) Someone who studied magic at some point;
c) Someone that used anything like 'arcane magic', by D&D standards.

He was some kind of divine agent that was sent to Middle Earth to help others. He was much closer to some kind of 'angel' or something like that, by D&D standards, than a wizard (someone with a class, etc.).

And during most of the LotR, he is a plot device. When the group has a problem they can´t handle or they are lost, he shows up.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I happen to be quoting pemerton, but this is applicable to several of the recent posts.



I think this is attempting to take the discussion in a straw man direction. The d&d wizard has never really shared anything more than a name and a pointy hat with gandalf. There are middle earth RPGs that attempt to mimic the way magic is used in the books, d&d just doesn't do that.

For an effective discussion why not talk about any of the hundreds of other fantasy magicians in print, almost all of whom would provide a more useful basis of discussion?

Surely that would be worth the effort, eh?

What about Merlin? Any examples about him throwing fireballs or disintegrates?

What about the kind of Wizards Conan fought? Did they disintegrate people much, teleport, fly? And was he unable to survive against one of them without protective spells cast by friendly mages?

The mages in Harry Potter's world seem to be very different from D&D in some ways, though they may seem closest. Yet, the whole way how potions and spells work seems different. And truely deadly spells are disallowed and used basically only by the evil spellcasters.

What other mages are there? I am not much of a fantasy book reader, my perception seems to be mostly colored by more mythological figures than literature.

The Discworld mages seem to have similar powers, but they also seem to be inspired partially by D&D influenced examples (which may be a general issue, distingiusihing D&D inspired material from the rest). And even there, no reason to assume that there fireballs deal more than 3d6 in a world of 1d8 swords, or that they can cast disintegrate. (They can turn people into frogs, though).

Two cents,

Let me remember you that Gandalf wasn´t:
a) Human;
b) Someone who studied magic at some point;
c) Someone that used anything like 'arcane magic', by D&D standards.

He was some kind of divine agent that was sent to Middle Earth to help others. He was much closer to some kind of 'angel' or something like that, by D&D standards, than a wizard (someone with a class, etc.).

And during most of the LotR, he is a plot device. When the group has a problem they can´t handle or they are lost, he shows up.

Stylistically, Gandalf does look nothing like a Angel, though. Angels are these beings with feathery wings.
Or, if you talk in D&D terms, they cast, say Holy Word and several other Clerical spells. Which also looks not like anything Gandalf ever did.

Stylistically, he's a mage. If someone that hasn't read all the background material to the LotR, they will certainly call Gandalf a mage, and if someone would discuss how he imagines a mage to be, he will cite Gandalf.

So, I think, he essentially _is_ a mage in how people envision mages.
But you're certanily right that he doesn't use arcane magic by D&D standards - he doesn't cast fly, disintegrate, fireball or Teleport. But is it that the vision of a mage doesn't match D&D, or that many people simply have false visions of what mages are.

 

[kimble]

Stylistically, Gandalf does look nothing like a Angel, though. Angels are these beings with feathery wings.
Or, if you talk in D&D terms, they cast, say Holy Word and several other Clerical spells. Which also looks not like anything Gandalf ever did.

Not really. What Gandalf does during LotR that only a D&D wizard would be able to do, really? He doesn´t use a grimoire. He doesn´t have a familiar. He uses a staff, ok, but a cleric could do that to (depending on his god). And all his spells are (by D&D standards) divine magic.

He even uses a sword, something that mages from many editions couldn´t do.

I understand what you mean ('Oh, but he is old! With a beard! And a pointy hat!'). I´m just saying that most people look at Gandalf, think 'That´s what a wizard should be!', and then never stop to think that Gandalf acts much more like a (D&D) cleric than a (D&D) mage.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Not really. What Gandalf does during LotR that only a D&D wizard would be able to do, really? He doesn´t use a grimoire. He doesn´t have a familiar. He uses a staff, ok, but a cleric could do that to (depending on his god). And all his spells are (by D&D standards) divine magic.

He even uses a sword, something that mages from many editions couldn´t do.

I understand what you mean ('Oh, but he is old! With a beard! And a pointy hat!'). I´m just saying that most people look at Gandalf, think 'That´s what a wizard should be!', and then never stop to think that Gandalf acts much more like a (D&D) cleric than a (D&D) mage.

I tend to assume that D&D classes are modelled on pre-existing stereotypes first (at least some of them). So, if Gandalf is more like a D&D Cleric than a D&D Wizard, but people consider Gandalf a wizard, isn't D&D doing something wrong? (And does he really seem like a D&D Cleric? It's Aragon that heals Frodo, not Gandalf, right?)

 

[kimble]

I tend to assume that D&D classes are modelled on pre-existing stereotypes first (at least some of them). So, if Gandalf is more like a D&D Cleric than a D&D Wizard, but people consider Gandalf a wizard, isn't D&D doing something wrong? (And does he really seem like a D&D Cleric? It's Aragon that heals Frodo, not Gandalf, right?)

There are a lot of characters that are called paladins, warlocks, druids, monks and others and they don´t act like they were D&D characters. Does that make D&D wrong? No.

The problem is that LotR is not a D&D setting and it never worked as a D&D setting. Ok, you have hobbits (halflings), elfs and dwarves. But a lot of things work completely different from D&D. Magic is one of those.

Again, I agree with you about the 'pointy hat' part. I´m just saying that Gandalf doesn´t work/act/has the same powers as a (D&D) wizard.

About not being a cleric because he doesn´t heal someone, I can´t remember him reading a grimoire also.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Mustrum, you are one of the people who I am talking about, drawing the discussion in a straw man direction.

Why not drop unproductive discussions about a literary character that has only the most tenuous relationships with d&d wizards?

You say that you are not familiar with fantasy? Why not do a little research on the work of Vance (an obvious first stop, surely), LeGuin and others? A quick google search will reveal dozens of mythical, legendary and literary examples which would be worth considering.

If you have a 1e DMG available why not check out the section in the back on inspirational reading?

That is where you'll find inspiration for d&d magic. Talk about that rather than rehash tired old arguments please.

Thanks