Getting rid of "Taking 10"

[Hussar]

As a GM, I'm against the idea of "taking ten" as an active tool that players have. If they could take ten in the situation, I just give it to them anyway. However, if they need to jump the five foot spiked pit (or anything with a moderate penalty for failure), I'm going to make them roll even with a low DC because rolling is part of the fun. To me, a lot of times when players ask to take ten, it feels like a slap in the face - like I'm above the system and just do what I want. I understand that take ten is useful at times, but I really don't like when my players try to force it on me as a gm.

Taking twenty is fine. If there's no penalty for failure, it's just saving everyone time.

Swimming a bit upthread for this one, but, this, right here, is why I absolutely LOATHE the idea of "Fail on a 1" houseruling.

If the PC has a base bonus great enough to clear the pit, he cannot fail, even if he rolls a 1. ((Barring outside interference of course)) A 1 isn't a fail on a jump check. There is no failure on a jump check. Every check is a success. The only thing the check determines is how far you jump. Which, in this case would be 1+bonus feet (presuming a running start). So long as you have a +4 or better, you cannot actually fail this check.

Which, is also true of every single skill check in 3e D&D (and 4e as well). A 1 is not an autofailure, not because it's so low, but because the check, frequently, doesn't actually determine success or failure, but rather how well you did something.

When you use any skill, you automatically succeed at using that skill. Your skill may not have been good enough to complete whatever task you are attempting, and that's fine. But, it doesn't mean that you actually failed to use that skill.

It's conflation of the skill mechanics with combat mechanics that causes so much confusion. Rolling a 1 in combat is an actual failure. Your attack roll determines success or failure of that attack. And that works because you are going to attempt many times during the course of combat to hit the baddie.

But, in skills, if you refuse to allow retries, when retries make sense of course, it's like telling the fighter that once he misses in combat, he can never make another attack against this opponent. His skill just isn't good enough.

 

[BryonD]

Swimming a bit upthread for this one, but, this, right here, is why I absolutely LOATHE the idea of "Fail on a 1" houseruling.

Agreed.

A fairly similar logic applies to why I don't like every 20 is a crit be it wizard or warrior....

 

[Agamon]

But, in skills, if you refuse to allow retries, when retries make sense of course, it's like telling the fighter that once he misses in combat, he can never make another attack against this opponent. His skill just isn't good enough.

Right. A skill check isn't about how good you are with that skill, period. It's about how good you are at that moment.

 

[Hussar]

Agreed.

A fairly similar logic applies to why I don't like every 20 is a crit be it wizard or warrior....

While I understand where you're coming from, I have to say that I don't mind it so much in combat. Mostly because one roll either way usually isn't going to be the deciding factor. Combat usually isn't binary pass/fail, so, one great hit or one bad miss makes things more exciting.

Although, to be fair, I found 3e's crit rules too punishing to PC's. Orcs should not be one shotting 3rd level fighters.

In 2e, our crit rules worked a bit different. When you rolled a crit, it gave you a bonus attack that round. A crit fumble meant that you lost your next attack. That seemed to work rather well in 2e. And, it's a bit more exciting than the 4e "you max your damage" crit, if a smidgeon slower.

 

[wedgeski]

Can everyone just make sure they're talking the same language here?

- Take 10 can only be performed when relaxed, unthreatened, and able to concentrate on the task at hand
- Take 20 can be performed only when there is time to do so (varies depending on the task) and there is no consequence for failure
- 1 is NOT an auto-fail on a Skill check

Those are the rules as I remember them from 3E.

The argument "I always like there to be a chance for failure" simply doesn't apply unless the no-auto-fail rule has been house-ruled away, since the DC's for really simple tasks are so low. I wouldn't expect a healthy Fighter to fail to climb a 10-foot knotted rope, ever, if he could give it his full attention; I wouldn't expect a powerful Thief to fail at hiding in a pitch-black room while wearing an invisibility cloak; I wouldn't expect a sage or linguist to fail at reading a proclamation hammered to the town hall and written in his native tongue.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

But, in skills, if you refuse to allow retries, when retries make sense of course, it's like telling the fighter that once he misses in combat, he can never make another attack against this opponent. His skill just isn't good enough.

This is where DM skills come into play. You can't always retry on certain things. Trying to climb out of a pit and you fail, well a good DM would tell you that the roots you were using to climb have come out, or you pulled a muscle etc...

Comparing skills and combat are like trying to compare apples and oranges. Skills also have to take into account outside interferences. Can't make that jump because there is great gusts of wind that are messing with the PC, or he slipped on some loose gravel etc....

 

[nightwyrm]

umm...for me as a DM, if the PC is good enough at a skill (or the task is so easy) that rolling a 1 isn't a failure, why make him roll in the first place...

 

[wedgeski]

Skills also have to take into account outside interferences. Can't make that jump because there is great gusts of wind that are messing with the PC, or he slipped on some loose gravel etc....

You are describing DC modifiers, not whether you should allow Take 10 or not.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

umm...for me as a DM, if the PC is good enough at a skill (or the task is so easy) that rolling a 1 isn't a failure, why make him roll in the first place...

That's why we play with the 1 is an auto fail rule.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

You are describing DC modifiers, not whether you should allow Take 10 or not.

Actually I'm describing reasons why someone may fail at something they are normally good at.