The Importance of Randomness

[hanez]

The best campaigns contain

1- a backdrop story or theme, pre imagined by the dm
2- choices by the players, that change, interact with, or diverge from the story
3- sidequests like banshees in the woods, kidnappings, maidens asking for help that the players can choose to go on, or not
4- stories that are made by the players, that DMs nurture, and allow to blossom, with of course sometimes unexpected outcomes
5- random events, that no one expected but players have fun dealing with (often generate by tables, or whim).

I usually put the words IMHO at the end of my posts... but I feel strongly about this, so I will say if you dont have a little bit of each of the elements above, you're probably doing it wrong.

 

[Mattachine]

False dichotomy:

* A DM wants to create a story, compose a plot, determine a timeline for a campaign.
* A DM uses random encounters and lets players make decisions that determine the storyline.

These two approaches can go together, and often do. Also, there are other ways to run a game.

* Adventures are simple dungeoncrawls with no story
* Players determine the majority of the story, and DM facilitates
* DM determines nearly the entire story, and PCs are bit players in a bigger plot/war/struggle
* Gaming group primarily uses published adventures as written

That last group is a significant one, especially for new gamers. If a published mod has random encounter tables, the newer player tends to use them if told; if the adventure doesn't have them, he or she doesn't. The best published adventures will include a random encounter table or two, then provide guidelines for how, when and if to use them.

 

[Dannager]

As a DM I am not sure I want to maintain control of the game world.

That's sort of an odd statement. If you're not controlling the game world, who is? The players certainly aren't; traditionally, their sphere of control doesn't extend much further than their respective PCs, and whatever they are capable. So the rest falls to you, though it sounds like you want to abdicate some significant part of that responsibility to random tables and dice.

If it means to be totally in charge of the future history of the world (small scale or big scale),

Then rejoice! Because that's not what it means!

then I wonder why should I be running a game and not just write a story and put it in a blog.

That said, is the only difference between playing D&D and writing a story the fact that you don't control the outcome as DM? Think hard about this one.

It saddens me to think I am piloting the game to a predetermined outcome (e.g. the characters are going to save the world for the cliché earth-shattering event) and leaving them only freedom to alter the details of the story. Am I then DMing only for myself?

Adventure path-style games sadden you, and you are working under the impression that DMs who run such games are DMing only for themselves? Seriously?

 

[Dannager]

I and others have already pointed out we use multiple methods, shown examples of how we use them, and stated any method a group chooses is equally valid. None of this matters in the face of your serious case of One-Wayism.

Oh, leave that crap at the door. We're here to discuss the upcoming edition of D&D, and that includes advocating for things we do and don't want to see in it. So sure, your way may be equally as "valid" (whatever the hell that means) as mine, but that doesn't mean that I want your way to be treated as the default in the new edition. I want the DMing guidelines to include a focus on deep encounter design, including pages of tips on terrain, traps, hazards, monsters, etc., and I don't want the book cluttered up with page after page of nearly-worthless random encounter tables for various environments, because I don't expect to get much use out of them. Maybe it's something that should be turned into a digital tool.

Besides, don't come in here and label me as a "serious case of One-Wayism" for believing one style of encounter generation to be preferable to another when we're practically surrounded by people who are telling you what the "best" campaigns contain - people who you certainly aren't bothering to call "One-Wayists". You don't really care about "One-Wayism". You just care about "One-Wayism" that disagrees with your personal preferences.

You continue to ignore or twist what other posters say and insult other DMs. You also contradict yourself at times which shows you aren't in this for a good conversation, but to crap on everyone else's enjoyment of the discussion. That is called trolling.

If you feel that I've ignored, twisted, insulted, contradicted, crapped on, or trolled, you are free to call out those specific cases where you feel that is true. That said, don't do what you just did. You don't like what I have to say. That's great. But what you're doing right here is attempting to shut down an on-topic conversation by labeling it "trolling" - the second time you've tried to play the "troll" card to shut down discussions in this thread because you disagree with them, by the way.

The topic has gone so far from the original intent now that getting it back on course and making it relevant to 5e will likely be pointless.

Really? In a thread entitled "The Importance of Randomness", a discussion of the difference between games that rely on random tables for their progression and games that don't is off-topic to you?

 

[Li Shenron]

Then rejoice! Because that's not what it means!

It is what your previous sentence about predetermined outcome suggested.

 

[Dannager]

It is what your previous sentence about predetermined outcome suggested.

Do you understand that having a single outcome of a single event set in stone - for instance, the death of the big bad evil guy at the end of the campaign - is different from having every outcome of every single event set in stone? Do you understand that there is room for the players to have a unique and unpredictable (from the DM's perspective) impact on the game world without requiring the DM to abdicate his responsibility to a set of random tables and dice?

These are important things to understand.

 

[Li Shenron]

Do you understand that having a single outcome of a single event set in stone - for instance, the death of the big bad evil guy at the end of the campaign - is different from having every outcome of every single event set in stone? Do you understand that there is room for the players to have a unique and unpredictable (from the DM's perspective) impact on the game world without requiring the DM to abdicate his responsibility to a set of random tables and dice?

These are important things to understand.

This is understandable, except your idea of "responsibility".

Why would the DM be less responsible (to whom? to what?) if she decides to let the world "run itself" through randomness (not meaning such a total randomness that would break all causality).

 

[Dannager]

This is understandable, except your idea of "responsibility".

Why would the DM be less responsible (to whom? to what?) if she decides to let the world "run itself" through randomness (not meaning such a total randomness that would break all causality).

The DM's responsibility is to control the extent of the game world that extends beyond the players' sphere of influence. This is done because a DM being in charge of a game world tends to make for a more enjoyable experience - in tabletop roleplaying gameplay - than having no DM.

Now, you don't have to view a preference for random tables as an abdication of responsibility on the part of the DM. But I certainly do.

 

[Li Shenron]

This is done because a DM being in charge of a game world tends to make for a more enjoyable experience - in tabletop roleplaying gameplay - than having no DM.

Definitely. But I think you may be overestimating the actual ability of a DM to make the game more enjoyable by crafting a good story arc. Are you sure that the average good DM can write stories with a bunch of predermined points that aren't effectively all just rehashes of what we've seen in thousands of movies and books? Randomizing some of those otherwise predetermined points is what can make a story more original that DM-Joe might have come up with. We're not all Stephen Kings... The balance between predictability and unpredictability of the story and its effect on enjoying the game can change a lot from group to group of course.

[Just to clarify: when I say randomize, I mean something like the DM having to decide e.g. how an NPC/monster reacts to the PC's actions, and instead of the DM making a deterministic choice, she decides this time to roll on a table. This is mostly what I have in mind during this discussion, and this is where I say that I do not believe I, as a DM, can always make the choice that provides more "fun", in fact I'm afraid most of the time I would probably end up making the most "normal" choice especially if I have to make my decision quickly at the table]

 

[Connorsrpg]

[MENTION=73683]Dannager[/MENTION]

It is clear YOU like to choose what does and does not go into your game. That is great. You sound like a very creative person with very strong ideas, but you do not seem to be getting what we are referring to in regards to our use of charts, randomness etc. And yes you have kind of ignored a lot of points made (especially examples) to criticise our way of DMing, and that quote regarding the "I rolled a 93", was so off the mark.

I have tried to put my ways/thoughts into words earlier, so i won't repeat.

I do agree with you regarding Random Monster Tables in the DMG/MM. I don't want these either. I have not used them since I started creating my own games around 20 years ago. However, I certainly create random Encounter Charts (discussed above) for each area of my own campaigns and believe advice on how to do so creatively would be great.

I too would love advice on traps, hazards, events, etc...and then I will put them into a table myself and roll random ones anyway EG. Forest Random Encounter chart will include options for relevant hazards, the odd trap, strange occurrence, local fauna, and some monsters.

However, i am in favour of other random charts: Businesses, NPC Traits, Plot Twists, Rewards, Tavern Activities, Games, Dungeon Dressing, Odd Places, etc. But again, if they don't make it into 5E I will go on using the ones I already have adding in more options and references from the 5E books anyway.