L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!

[Meophist]

i see what you did there

I actually didn't intend to be snarky. The game I remember wasn't D&D, but either a TCG or video game.

I think the hit point threshold was something like a thousand hit points, which doesn't quite match up with D&D.

 

[wedgeski]

I haven't read this entire thread, so apologies for that, but I will simply say that 4E's implementation of cascaded save-or-die effects (petrification being the most obvious) was a massive hit at my table and is about the best compromise I can imagine.

I really don't want, as a DM, to be asking players how many hit points they have left before deciding which attack to use, and I really don't want, as a player, to wonder where the DM has set his "dial" so that if the medusa looks at me I'm screwed. This is why the game *needs* clear condition milestones like Bloodied or whatever you want to call it, and why tiered effects like this should be keyed off those.

 

[Kingreaper]

I really like Mearls' proposed system.

The only issue I have is that the wizard is always more likely to be turned to stone/disintegrated/etc, due to lower health pools. ( I am assuming that pretty-much-universal-mechanic will remain in Next).

While this may make sense that the wizard is more likely to get hit (and paralyzed) by a ghoul, I think he should have some advantage when dealing with, say, a soul trap.

I hate to bring up "Physical HP" and "Mental HP" again, because it's redundant, but SOME acknowledgement of classes areas of strength needs to be built into the system.

Perhaps the answer is in saving throw modifiers once again?

Even just having some saves be int-based could do it.
But honestly I don't think a wizard has a stronger grip on their soul than a fighter anyway. The wizard messes in matters beyond the ken of normal men. Which means they open themselves up to such things.
I can only really see them having an advantage when they use some form of magic to defend themselves.

 

[dkyle]

I recall playing a game that was like this, where an instant-death attack only worked if the opponent had a certain number of hit points or less. I can't remember what game it was, however.

It might not be where you're thinking of, but in Dungeons & Dragons Online, Vorpals and similar weapons were changed fairly recently so that the auto-kill on natural 20 only works on things with 1000 or less HP. If they have more than that, they take 100 damage.

While I don't mind it, I think it's overall a disliked change by the community. The biggest problem is that it was a one-sided nerf; casters got to keep their full insta-kills. It also happened around the time that casters got some major buffs of their own, among which was removing the HP caps on Power Words (but giving them a long cooldown).

 

[nightwalker450]

Here's how I would run a Medusa (and since this chat, have been thinking of throwing one at my party in the near future)...

Aura 5: Any creature that starts its turn in the aura is subject to the following attack
+X vs Fortitude
Hit: The target makes a death save, on the first failed death save the target is slowed until the end of the encounter, on the second failed save, the target is restrained until the end of the encounter, on the last failed save the target is petrified permanently.
Special: Any creature can choose to be blinded until the start of their next turn, instead of being attacked.

 

[Andor]

I think it depends on how you fluff things.

FREX Classically Medusa is supposed to be so ugly that the sight of her turns men to stone. This should be a save or die effect, you see her or you don't.

Otoh these days it's more usually presented as a species with a mystical power in it's gaze that turns people to stone.

As a magical effect coming from the Medusa I'd have no problem with incremental effects. Heck it could even be straight HP damage with lost HP representing body parts turned to stone. The only difference is that at death you need a flesh-to-stone rather than a resurrection spell.

Otherwise it could be incremental saves, speed damage, condition effect track, a single save but with three rounds of petrification during which increasingly harder countermeasures will be effective.

In other words, fluff matters. Mechanics should support fluff. Conversely you should write your fluff to match your mechanics.

 

[TwoSix]

Personally, I think the medusa is a terrible example of a SoD. The medusa should simply be a "Die." If you don't take precautions to not meet her gaze, like a blindfold or a mirror, you will see her and turn to stone, full stop.

Now, this sort of lethality means that only a truly cruel DM will introduce a medusa without giving a lot of object clues as to what is coming. But that's fine, a medusa should be treated not as a monster (because its HPs and other stats are necessarily secondary), but as a puzzle.

Any encounter that has the potential of immediate lethality should not use the mechanics that underlie the combat pillar. Avoiding such a hazard should be viewed as under the purview of the "exploration pillar", and treated accordingly, such that embracing the narrative is the only way to overcome the challenge.

 

[Sunseeker]

Personally, I think the medusa is a terrible example of a SoD. The medusa should simply be a "Die." If you don't take precautions to not meet her gaze, like a blindfold or a mirror, you will see her and turn to stone, full stop.

Now, this sort of lethality means that only a truly cruel DM will introduce a medusa without giving a lot of object clues as to what is coming. But that's fine, a medusa should be treated not as a monster (because its HPs and other stats are necessarily secondary), but as a puzzle.

Any encounter that has the potential of immediate lethality should not use the mechanics that underlie the combat pillar. Avoiding such a hazard should be viewed as under the purview of the "exploration pillar", and treated accordingly, such that embracing the narrative is the only way to overcome the challenge.

Though I disagree with making Meduas' have just "DIE" effects, I heartily agree with the rest. Most every monster of any real power you run into has clues and hints about what it is and what it can do, long before you ever encounter it. If I intended to have my party encounter a Medusa somewhere, they'd likely see indications of it's power several encounters, possibly even levels before they went up against it.

 

[BryonD]

As a magical effect coming from the Medusa I'd have no problem with incremental effects. Heck it could even be straight HP damage with lost HP representing body parts turned to stone. The only difference is that at death you need a flesh-to-stone rather than a resurrection spell.

Otherwise it could be incremental saves, speed damage, condition effect track, a single save but with three rounds of petrification during which increasingly harder countermeasures will be effective.

In other words, fluff matters. Mechanics should support fluff. Conversely you should write your fluff to match your mechanics.

I've said before that a different monster inspired by Medusa but not actually considered to be "Medusa" is beyond question a valid alternative.

If you just are flat out opposed to SoD then simply don't use the "classic Medusa".

When all is said and done you can't simulate overcoming (or failing) Medusa ("classic") unless the model actually reflects it. If the underlying system is intended to be capable of modeling "classic" Medusa, that does nothing to prevent people from just other surrogates. But if the system is designed from the ground up with the presumption that a SoD effect is to be avoided, then it is highly unlikely it will be capable of providing the "vs. classic Medusa" result that other alternative systems offer.

 

[BryonD]

Though I disagree with making Meduas' have just "DIE" effects, I heartily agree with the rest. Most every monster of any real power you run into has clues and hints about what it is and what it can do, long before you ever encounter it. If I intended to have my party encounter a Medusa somewhere, they'd likely see indications of it's power several encounters, possibly even levels before they went up against it.

Getting the mechanics right is critically important.
The DM running a good game is ALSO critically important.