D&D 5E How Should Dragons Be Handled In 5e

[keterys]

Previous editions aside, there are plenty of literary models to choose from. My personal favorite is probably Tolkein's Smaug, who destroyed an entire dwarven kingdom all by himself. So for my preferred dragon (which is not exactly Smaug) I'd like the following abilities: flame breath, flight, godlike combat abilities, amazing senses, unbelievable intelligence, immense strength, 100% immune to magic, and some kind of precognitive ability.

Why completely immune to magic? I'll admit I'm not convinced that anyone or anything ever needs to be immune to magic, but especially dragons?

Anyhow, make sure to add on 'Vulnerable A critical from an arrow reduces the dragon to 0 hp'

 

[john112364]

My first encounter with a monster vault dragon was awesome. We fought a black dragon and he almost killed me and never once landed a blow! His aura and breath weapon (which missed both times btw but has a miss effect) tore me up because I had to be in melter to lock him down. (I was the defender). Even though I almost got taken out it was a cool fight.

That's what dragon should be like.

 

[boredgremlin]

I am definitely in the camp where the toughest, oldest dragons should only be outclassed by nearly divine level beings and up; demon lords, arch devils, demi-gods, and their peers. The biggest, baddest dragons should be able to fight the Tarrasque to a draw at least.

In any case, I filled out a list of spells known for a Great Wyrm Red Dragon that I thought would fit more or less seamlessly, and I will include some flavour text for how I think some of the spells would look when cast by a dragon...

[sblock=Salamandrex Spell List]
9th
Meteor Swarm = Exploding Breath
Overwhelming Presence

8th
Greater Shout = Dragon's Roar
Incendiary Cloud = Spreading Breath
Mind Blank

7th
Banishment = Planar Distortion Power
Greater Arcane Sight
Greater Scrying = Even The Dragon On The DMG Can Do This

6th
Great Dispel Magic = Magical Distortion Power
Major Curse = Bad Dragon Mojo
True Seeing

5th
Break Enchantment = Magical Distortion Power
Feeblemind = Struck Dumb By Dragon Mojo
Mage's Private Sanctum = Lair Mojo
Nightmare = Bad Dragon Mojo

4th
Crushing Despair
Fire Shield = Fire Aura+
Greater False Life = Draconic Vigour
Illusory Wall = Lair Mojo

3rd
Burrow
Haste = Deadly Surprise Speed
Tongues
Water Breathing

2nd
Bear's Endurance
Detect Thoughts
Eagle's Splendour
Resist Energy
Spider Climb = Claws of Steel

1st
Ant Haul = Draconic Might
Feather Fall = Desperate Flapping
Jump
Mage Armour = Shimmering Scales
Shield = Shimmering Scales

0 Level
Arcane Mark
Daze
Detect Poison
Ghost Sound
Mending
Message
Prestidigitation
Read Magic
Resistance
[/sblock]

Great example. Add some customization for individual dragons to this idea and you have the perfect dragons IMO.

I would also like to see dragons go from monsters into elemental guardians. Something left over from an older age of the world thats rare and powerful and have some responsibility for keeping magic and the elements in balance.

 

[kitsune9]

Dragons should remain the iconic "toughest monsters around" status. It's just that they need to keep up with what that takes, against the canny, clever, power-gaming adventurers.

This. Definitely this.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I am really disappointed in how 4e handled dragons, by and large.

The spellcasting aside, dragons had iconic images in my head as creatures with a breadth of magical abilities related to a potent theme unrelated to their ostensible breath weapons. Blue dragons were great illusionists. Red dragons could find a missing gold coin anywhere on the planet. Gold dragons were "lucky." Bronze dragons would adopt human form and join or command great armies. 4e largely dropped these abilities in order to focus in on the combat, which was one of the first big red flags in monster design for me. Oh. Now blue dragons are just great dire pikachus who can zap you with lightning in a few different ways. Well. Blah.

4e also dropped the ball on metallic dragons as potential allies or aides or social challenges, and shoehorned them into being mostly combat machines as well.

I don't need my dragons to take hours to prepare -- I don't need to have to select a galaxy of wizard, priest, or psionicist abilities and graft them on and judge how each one will affect the combat. I would like to see a glorious return to the iconic abilities of the dragons, and, with the three pillars firmly in their mind, I would like to see a return to metallic dragons as not-necessarily-battle-challenges. My 30th level paladin should go into battle next to (or astride!) a young gold or silver dragon, not necessarily want to kill one and take its stuff.

We can apply this to the other dragons, too. Most of the dragons were threats of one form or another on all three pillars, across the board. White dragons can be fought in self-created blizzards. Blue dragons need to be outsmarted, and the desert they live in must be endured. Red dragons can be provoked into less-than-ideal conditions, if one is clever and fast enough...though inviting the wrath of an ancient red dragon is almost never a situation for survival.

I also hope that dragons might be able to fall into the "a full day's worth of encounters in one monster" category. If I slay one dragon, it should be the only thing my friends and I are capable of doing before resting for a good long while.

I kind of don't want to bother with "wyrmling"-style age categories anymore, honestly, either. Killing baby dragons feels weird. I do not want to have to murder any more dragon-toddlers. It's OK if that means that some dragons are low level (level 5 white dragons?) as long as they're still tough encounters. It's also OK if that means that dragons are only high-level threats (no dragon below epic level!), as long as their effects can be felt for an entire campaign.

 

[Buugipopuu]

Dragons casting as Sorcerers is being misinterpreted. What "Dragons cast as Sorcerers" really means is "Sorcerers cast as Dragons". The reason why Sorcerers can cast spells is due to manifestation of some draconic heritage.

 

[triqui]

Well, we will find out in 2016, won't we?

I hope not...
Assuming 5e is out in 2013, 7e in 2016 would mean 3 editions in 4 years...

 

[triqui]

Dragons casting as Sorcerers is being misinterpreted. What "Dragons cast as Sorcerers" really means is "Sorcerers cast as Dragons". The reason why Sorcerers can cast spells is due to manifestation of some draconic heritage.

That's not true. *Some* sorcerers cast spells becouse of draconic heritage, but others have some other kind of heritage. Fey, outsider, elemental, cosmic power, hundred of centuries dabbling with the arcane...

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

That's not true. *Some* sorcerers cast spells becouse of draconic heritage, but others have some other kind of heritage. Fey, outsider, elemental, cosmic power, hundred of centuries dabbling with the arcane...

That concept is more true now than it was when 3.0 launched. Pathfinder even codified it. But in 3.0, it was heavily implied that sorcery was the manifestation of dragon heritage.


Dragons should be powerful. Especially the great wyrms. They are the most awe inspiring creatures in existence short of gods. I'm more than cool with them having spellcasting, as well as other PC abilities. Psionics too.

The really shouldn't be used as low level threats. I accept that Dragons get a comprehensive description of their power levels according to age. They are in the title of the game, so the deserve to get entire books written about them. But, as a rule, dragons in the monster manual should be adults or great wyrms.

This gives the other dragon types a little more breathing room. Drakes and Wyverns are for lower levels. Nasty, intelligent creatures that lack the majesty of a real dragon.

A real dragon affects the area around it. It's not a monster, it's a force. Nearby people know its name, hunting patterns, desires, and history. There is always a relationship of some sort, even if it's as simple as "Keshlaag has made it known that we are not to cross over that hill unless invited."

 

[Buugipopuu]

But, as a rule, dragons in the monster manual should be adults or great wyrms.

The lower level dragons' stats have a use, so they should be in the Monster Manual. They're vaguely playable as PCs (In PF, at least, due to its highly generous monstrous character rules, less so in 3.x), shapechange forms, effigies, illusions, summons, or cohorts. But they shouldn't appear in published adventures or random encounter tables, due to the aforementioned "killing baby dragons" issue. Except maybe in a "dragon parent protecting its young from adventurers" capacity.