D&D 4E The New Monster Math, Explained and Expanded

[Tequila Sunrise]

Is there anyone out there with a MV that can verify the existence or lack of swarms?

I found a swarm in the Dark Sun book. (Thanks, [MENTION=1165](Psi)SeveredHead[/MENTION]!) It too neglects to mention anything about OAs, so I'm thinking that the design standard for swarms has officially shifted.

Can't imagine why WotC has been so quiet about it, though. I would have thought it'd pop up in errata somewhere.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I updated MarMon with a glossary of terms, and commentary on the swarm keyword. Thanks for bringing this to my attention, Arlough!

 

[keterys]

Even if Swarms don't provoke for moving into a character's square, they still do for moving past a character - so they do provoke a fair amount of the time to move into an optimal square.

Also, they're vulnerable to close and area attacks... in many groups, that means that they die _faster_ than other monsters. And the more recent ones often only deal their damage for ending next to them, and many don't even have opportunity attacks. So, I'd suggest against just blanket making them worth more xp.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Also, they're vulnerable to close and area attacks... in many groups, that means that they die _faster_ than other monsters. And the more recent ones often only deal their damage for ending next to them, and many don't even have opportunity attacks. So, I'd suggest against just blanket making them worth more xp.

I've never seen a party with more than a couple area/close powers between the lot of 'em, so it's hard to imagine a party that makes a swarm look fragile. I see your point though, theoretically.

 

[D'karr]

The compendium entry for SWARM does not have any mention of avoiding OAs for moving into a creature's space. I don't know if this was "officially" corrected, but the compendium is updated to show that it is no longer the case.

I've played and DMd many games that have used swarms, and their potential is directly related to party composition. In a party with no Area or Close attack powers swarms are a pain. Including more than one swarm against a party like that becomes a huge pain. In a party that has those measures they are fine, even in greater numbers. As a matter of fact they seem to die easier because they can be grouped together into those effects to take more damage.

 

[Arlough]

Even if Swarms don't provoke for moving into a character's square, they still do for moving past a character - so they do provoke a fair amount of the time to move into an optimal square.

All creatures provoke opportunity attacks for moving past a character.
But Swarms don't provoke for moving into a character's square where other creatures do.
This means that they have more tactical capabilities than a "normal" creature.

Also, they're vulnerable to close and area attacks... in many groups, that means that they die _faster_ than other monsters. And the more recent ones often only deal their damage for ending next to them, and many don't even have opportunity attacks. So, I'd suggest against just blanket making them worth more xp.

Area and close attacks make up, by far, a minority of the attacks out there, especially for non-arcane classes. Also, by moving into a character's space, a swarm then can then only be attacked for half damage, or forces the party to make attacks that target their allies.

 

[Arlough]

The compendium entry for SWARM does not have any mention of avoiding OAs for moving into a creature's space. I don't know if this was "officially" corrected, but the compendium is updated to show that it is no longer the case.

The compendium has been wrong before. But, assuming that it is now the unofficial official ruling, the half damage on the majority of attacks with no guidelines on what amount of vulnerability to close and area attacks still makes them more than just your standard monster.

I've played and DMd many games that have used swarms, and their potential is directly related to party composition. In a party with no Area or Close attack powers swarms are a pain. Including more than one swarm against a party like that becomes a huge pain. In a party that has those measures they are fine, even in greater numbers. As a matter of fact they seem to die easier because they can be grouped together into those effects to take more damage.

Even if there are multiple swarms in a group, how often are they going to be grouped together? And if they were to group together, it would be on and around party members, meaning that the party members would have to be targets in the close and area attacks as well.
Anything dies easier if you have a party that is well made against it. Saying swarms fine if you have a group with lots of area and close attacks is like saying that using a flight of young red dragons against a level 7 group is fine so long as everybody is immune to fire and claws.

 

[Arlough]

I was just prepping an encounter for my next session when I came across another "Super Keyword"

Insubstantial = take half damage from everything, including ongoing damage.

It's like making a creature elite, given that it effectively has twice the HP. But it falls short in that the monster doesn't also get the action point or the +2 on saving throws.

Unlike the swarm, it can't move into the same square as another creature, but it also doesn't have the vulnerability to area/close either.

 

[keterys]

If a group doesn't have _any_ close/area attacks, maybe they should have considered that? Much like running into radiant resistant creatures when they're all radiant.

One of my current groups has exactly _2_ close attacks in it - Come and Get It and Flame Spiral. And those 2 powers have 2-shot any swarms we've ever run into.

Insubstantial is weird - sometimes it means less hit points, sometimes radiant damage makes it go away for a round. Either way, it's actually quite erratically balanced (less so than swarms).

 

[Arlough]

If a group doesn't have _any_ close/area attacks, maybe they should have considered that? Much like running into radiant resistant creatures when they're all radiant.

One of my current groups has exactly _2_ close attacks in it - Come and Get It and Flame Spiral. And those 2 powers have 2-shot any swarms we've ever run into.

And if you have 2 shot that swarm, and another comes around the corner in the same encounter? Because if I recall correctly, those are both encounter powers, but I may be wrong.

Insubstantial is weird - sometimes it means less hit points, sometimes radiant damage makes it go away for a round. Either way, it's actually quite erratically balanced (less so than swarms).

That is the case with existing monsters, but this is a tool for creating monsters.

Perhaps there should be something that describes weaknesses that would balance insubstantial or swarm keywords.