Please no monster class levels

I would love an option to play exotic monster/races like in Tall Tales of the Wee Folk and Savage Species.

Large creatures like Centaurs and Treants can be fun; and others, like the Hsiao (though that flies, which scares some people).

I woud love to rock a Killmoulis Monk.
 

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Making class level for monsters a regular thing was one of the BEST features of 3rd edition.

And it really wasn't that hard to eyeball it either, you're just leveling up their hp, saves, feats, skill points and spells (if applicable) the same way you would if you were just using generic monster advancement rules. Skills are almost always going to be +level+3 to their main skills.

What I really didn't like was the 4E pre-generated separate versions of monsters orc soldier, orc assassins, orc shaman, orc chieftan taking up valuable space.

Solution? Monster manual should have base monsters only. With a paragraph and /or table about usual variations.

The online component should have official pre-generated versions AND fan-made pregens that are then voted on by the community so the cream rises to the top.

Want just an orc? Hit the MM. Want a specific 13th level Orc Shaman without creating it yourself? Hit the online database.
 

What I really didn't like was the 4E pre-generated separate versions of monsters orc soldier, orc assassins, orc shaman, orc chieftan taking up valuable space.

Solution? Monster manual should have base monsters only. With a paragraph and /or table about usual variations.

NOPE!
I love the fact that I can flip open the 4e monster vault to "Orc" and run an exciting orc encounter with 4 or 5 different specialty types of orcs with no need to spend time looking up other sources or calculating stats. These additional stat blocks take up very little space, because there is no need to duplicate other ecology/generic racial information.

The online component should have official pre-generated versions AND fan-made pregens that are then voted on by the community so the cream rises to the top.

Want just an orc? Hit the MM. Want a specific 13th level Orc Shaman without creating it yourself? Hit the online database.

This is fine, but I think there's plenty of room for both.
 


I don't see why having rules for adding class levels to monsters forces you to use them.

I think the problem isn't the class level rules, it's the absence (in 3.5) of good non-level based advancement. Keep the class level rules, just tell me what sort of abilities I should give a 20 HD mind flayer.
 

I don't see why having rules for adding class levels to monsters forces you to use them.

I think the problem isn't the class level rules, it's the absence (in 3.5) of good non-level based advancement. Keep the class level rules, just tell me what sort of abilities I should give a 20 HD mind flayer.

I think the issue rather is the NPC/PC divide. i could care less if there are monster class levels or not, but its the mentality that PCs and NPCs should play by the exact same rules that bothers me.
 

NOPE!
I love the fact that I can flip open the 4e monster vault to "Orc" and run an exciting orc encounter with 4 or 5 different specialty types of orcs with no need to spend time looking up other sources or calculating stats. These additional stat blocks take up very little space, because there is no need to duplicate other ecology/generic racial information.

But I just feel that those blocks are sooo generic, that you can easily just pull out an orc and give it 20 extra hp, +3 to some of its saves, +3 to attack, and one or two extra abilities/spells and its just as simple. If the monster is just an obstacle it doesnt matter if you wing the exact number of hp or saves.
 

I think the issue rather is the NPC/PC divide. i could care less if there are monster class levels or not, but its the mentality that PCs and NPCs should play by the exact same rules that bothers me.

:)

Whereas I am of the complete opposite to you. I have trouble getting into games when the mechanics are not consistent across the entire game. If one type of character has one set of rules, and other type has another, why bother with the rules for npcs - at that point as a GM I would feel better to just make it all GM fiat "Well this fight has gone on for 5 rounds, the fighter is really wounded and the wizard is down - it's time for the monster to die" and the next hit kills the monster.

Given that is a little reductio ad absurdem, but that is how I react to separate rules for PCs and NPCs emotionally.
 

Janaxstrus said:
The game is better? That is a matter of opinion.
To a certain degree: yes.

1. It is easier for the DM to create monsters.
Well, only kind of. Let me give an example from my RPG (how old that must get on these boards!). In it, all monsters, PCs, and NPCs follow the same rules for getting any ability. Flight, base attack, hit points, spells, etc. The players know how everything works, and they can try to make whatever type of character they want (as long as it doesn't disrupt the campaign, like a guy who has an aura that kills the other PCs near him; though, technically, the system certainly allows for that).

Since the players know that everything is built using the same rules, I can give pretty much anything I want any ability on the fly, and the players accept it. They know they could acquire the same ability, so it doesn't bug them. Sure, sometimes an ability is something only a hit die 12 creature could do (such as Lost magic), and they might recognize that as players. However, if a hit die 1 creature is flying, they know exactly how that's possible, and shrug. It's fair, and they know it.

What this does for me, as GM, is free me up from worrying about justifying anything, or from getting stuck in writing up all the details of how it's done. On the fly, I can make a fire elemental dragon that causes explosions of fire when it's damaged, and the reaction of my players is "how do we deal with this?" It's not "that's not fair, I want that ability!" They know they can have it.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that by having everything be on equal footing (in a sense), I can just make stuff up without writing anything down; I just follow the guidelines for attack/AC/skills/HP/etc. on a chart based on how "focused" the creature is, theoretically, in that area. I know that the mechanics will back up pretty much anything I decide to do, and that the players know it, and so we all play, immersed, without wondering "how can he only attack at +4 with +3 to damage, but is able to attack everyone around him?" If they're mechanically intrigued, they say, "oh, he has Whirlwind Attack, but must've paid to bypass the prerequisites."

Sure, writing everything up takes longer (25-50 minutes), but the consistent rules give me the freedom to take 5 minutes to consult the guidelines I want, jot the appropriate numbers down, and add a couple abilities. And, if I want to completely wing it, I don't write anything down, I just leave my book open to the guidelines to reference the stat as necessary, and just use abilities I make up as I go along. That's absolutely zero prep work, too, which is the way I usually handle creatures.

3. The Dm does not have to apply a strange amount of levels, just because a monste should be able to do x.
I've found that by decoupling things like base attack, hit points, saves, etc. away from levels, it's much easier to achieve this goal. It's possible for the next edition to do this, but I doubt it will. They could make things like saves, attack, AC, hit points, etc. all tied to backgrounds or themes, meaning that adding class levels would be simple.

I have a feeling they'll propose the reverse, though: "the Whirling Swordsman theme lets you attack everyone near you, and it doesn't increase your attack bonus (that's what class does). If you want to have an orc make a whirlwind attack without adding class levels, just throw the theme on him!"

That, and I doubt they'll completely walk away from 4e's monster generation system. I think that, as guidelines, they're very useful, and should remain. So, that at least makes me happy. As always, play what you like :)

When one of your players asks "Why can't my 1st level PC be as rich as a 0-level or 1st-level NPC merchant or noble?", what answer do you give?
I say "take Status 3 for nobility, as it comes with the money, title, and political pull you're looking for. What's that? You just want the money without the baggage? Limit Status 3 to only money, and save yourself some character points."

Basically, even though it hasn't been offered so far in D&D, it doesn't mean what you've proposed can't be addressed, too. It's a new edition, after all. As always, play what you like :)
 

I just feel that those blocks are sooo generic, that you can easily just pull out an orc and give it 20 extra hp, +3 to some of its saves, +3 to attack, and one or two extra abilities/spells and its just as simple. If the monster is just an obstacle it doesnt matter if you wing the exact number of hp or saves.
I can level monsters up and down on my own - the maths is very easy. But I like having a better designer than me design the abilities/spells. On my own, for example, I wouldn't come up with a hobgoblin warcaster, a goblin hexer or a gnoll gorger.

I love the fact that I can flip open the 4e monster vault to "Orc" and run an exciting orc encounter with 4 or 5 different specialty types of orcs with no need to spend time looking up other sources or calculating stats.
Definitely. This is a huge thing for me. The first adventure I ran in 4e was the old B/X module Night's Dark Terror. The early parts of that module have a lot of goblin encounters. The variety of goblin stats in the 4e was a huge help.

And since then I've run quite a few hobgoblin and gnoll encounters, using the various stats for these creatures, as well as a wide range of human thugs and cutlists and the like drawing on the variety of stats for human foes. What those stat blocks do is let me run a game with a range of mechanically diverse antagonists and encounters, without the story involving some absurdly diverse menagerie of the White Plume Mountain variety.

Because of this (but also some other factors, too) the 4e MMs are hands down the best monster books I've used. (Runner up is Rolemaster Creature and Treasures, which packs in heaps of monsters using a very concise but effective stat block.)
 

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