How Do you Feel About Healing Surges? (Read First!)

[Tony Vargas]

This is another thing that is worse in practice than it is on paper. You can't do anything when you are unconscious. It's a great way to sour people on the system if their first encounter is spent lying face down in the mud.

Typically you don't stay below zero for long. The Leader heals you, or an ally gives you a potion or something. And typically, it'll be a round or few before you drop, even if you are the under-optimized defender who crashes into the middle of the enemies. Well, maybe a bit less so post MM3...

Action denial through being dropped can be a major frustration, though, just like any other sort. But it's worth noting there's a major perception gulf around this. For some players, being able to act every round makes the game fun. For others, lacking a sense of 'jeopardy' - as defined by being dropped in one shot now and then, or even someone getting killed some of the time, or some other personal thermometer of risk - makes the game just as boring as sitting it out and just making death saves.

 

[NewJeffCT]

This is another thing that is worse in practice than it is on paper. You can't do anything when you are unconscious. It's a great way to sour people on the system if their first encounter is spent lying face down in the mud.

Isn't that common through all editions of D&D - you go below 0 and you're dying and can't do anything until healed?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Not excluding the middle. I embrace the middle. I'm reading, commenting and listening because the middle is what keeps this thread going.
What I said is that we need to exclude the middle from issues of X side is losing arguments. I highlighted that the dislikes weren't losing just because they were less than 50%. The neutral group cannot be counted in the Like numbers when looking for a "winner" because for many if it was a matter of taking the HS as they are wholesale or leaving them wholesale then the answer certainly changes from one of "it is okay but..".

That's misleading use of poll data--online, self-selected poll "data" at that. Winning or losing is a meaningless question given the circumstances.

 

[EmbraCraig]

Indeed. This is an issue with any edition. However the narrative control needed to balance out HS with HP goes up. In 3e if you hit 0HP you were dying. In 4e if you hit 0HP you are dying... but you pop a HS and you are able to go back into the fray. You do so without any assistance, you do it just because you want to and can. By definition there is no explicit reason needed to be able to do this. The rules tell you to do it and then you do. It is a major flaw (IMHO) that 4e requires you to fill in the gaps. Instead of instituting that you do hear the voice of your mentor and get up, you get up because you hear the voice of your mentor. This is the critical distinction that I was talking about that you missed.

Can you clarify this part for me? If you're at 0 Hit Points, you can't just 'pop a healing surge' without outside intervention unless you roll a 20+ (modified by certain feats etc) on your death save. I think I've seen it happen twice in all my time playing 4th Ed, and my players get knocked out plenty. You want a justification for that 1 in 20 chance? OK, they were knocked out cold for somewhere between 6 and 30 seconds, then the character came back round again... last time I got sparked out, I came back round without any kind of divine intervention, so I'm ok with that in my game...

Otherwise, I don't get your distinction between a 4e leader character using whatever spell/power/exploit they have to trigger a healing surge to get them back up, or a 3e cleric hitting them with a "Cure <severity> wounds" spell to get them back up?

The difference for me is that the receiving character in 3.5 can keep getting knocked down/propped back up until the cleric has to go to bed - in 4e, the receiving character will eventually run out of juice. I find that pretty easy to flavour as well - no matter how much magic/inspiration/willpower/adrenaline you can lend someone to keep them going, fatigue will eventually take over and they can't go on without rest.

 

[NewJeffCT]

And I'm glad you brought up that other comment (I bolded it). I hadn't thought of that, but that is certainly another freebie you get with 4e. Not having to spend the time at 6 second intervals to get back up to full. 1/4 HP in 6 seconds or 1d8+1 in 6 seconds, and you have to pay for the 1d8.

(

Sure, a healing surge may be 1/4 of hit points, but at 17th level in 3.5E, the party cleric can just cast Mass Heal and presto, the entire party regains 170 hit points apiece. (and, yes, I have seen that happen in combat in 3.5E games)

I don't know enough about 4E to know if a level 17 cleric or leader can do similar.

 

[Tovec]

Sure, a healing surge may be 1/4 of hit points, but at 17th level in 3.5E, the party cleric can just cast Mass Heal and presto, the entire party regains 170 hit points apiece. (and, yes, I have seen that happen in combat in 3.5E games)

I don't know enough about 4E to know if a level 17 cleric or leader can do similar.

The 1/4 HP value corresponds to the second wind mechanic, unless I am mistaken, which a character can do without any help or intervention from a cleric. A 3.5 cleric can do a 9th level spell and mass heal the group. How often are they doing this? Even assuming they are doing it multiple times a day, which is unlikely - better uses for 9th level divine slot (miracle).

Also, this has nothing to do with the CLW Wands argument which is routinely made about 3e and is used as the primary reason why HS is such a better replacement in 4e.

Tangential reasoning: If CLW Wands were such an issue in 3e then why was the effect emulated in 4e? Does anyone advocating this sameness think we LIKED that you could exploit the game in this way? Some people and groups certainly do, but they have often found better ways of dealing with healing between encounters. All of these healing between encounter ways make more sense than in 4e and are more easily removed than HS in 4e. In fact, if disliked they can all be converted back to the pre-existing form without serious effects to the game. None of which is true about HS.

I'm not opposed to letting people who like HS have theirs. I just don't want theirs to interfere with mine. Why is that so dangerous?

 

[Tovec]

Can you clarify this part for me? If you're at 0 Hit Points, you can't just 'pop a healing surge' without outside intervention unless you roll a 20+ (modified by certain feats etc) on your death save. I think I've seen it happen twice in all my time playing 4th Ed, and my players get knocked out plenty. You want a justification for that 1 in 20 chance? OK, they were knocked out cold for somewhere between 6 and 30 seconds, then the character came back round again... last time I got sparked out, I came back round without any kind of divine intervention, so I'm ok with that in my game...

I want an explanation that doesn't follow the cause. I want me to go "okay, my character thinks 'I really need to get up here, the party will die without me.'" and through a process in the rules miraculously gets up and keeps fighting. That is where the events shape the result. I don't want the opposite which seems to occur whenever I am in a discussion about 4e mechanics. I don't want the following to happen, "Okay, I've fallen down. I roll my d20 and get back up and continue fighting." I don't want the mechanic to drive the event. I want the cause to follow from the event. Now sometimes, in my model it will be that I desperately want or need to get back up and can't. However I find that far preferable to the other way which is where I want to get up (but have no "need") and happen to be lucky enough to do so.

Otherwise, I don't get your distinction between a 4e leader character using whatever spell/power/exploit they have to trigger a healing surge to get them back up, or a 3e cleric hitting them with a "Cure <severity> wounds" spell to get them back up?

Where did I say anything about leaders using their spells/powers/exploits to trigger healing to be different than 3e cleric hitting with a cure spell? If I did then I apologize. I have completely different issues with warlords shouting at fallen allies* but that is not at all what I have meant to (or recall) bringing up in this thread.

The difference for me is that the receiving character in 3.5 can keep getting knocked down/propped back up until the cleric has to go to bed - in 4e, the receiving character will eventually run out of juice. I find that pretty easy to flavour as well - no matter how much magic/inspiration/willpower/adrenaline you can lend someone to keep them going, fatigue will eventually take over and they can't go on without rest.

Except HS aren't fatigue. Yes there is a diminishing returns policy with them but they aren't fatigued by using a surge, they are heightened. The only time you could try and justify this "fatigue" is when they are completely spent of HS but even then it is just a resource which is out. It is like calling a PC is poor because they are out of gold to spend on more gear. If they don't have their gear AND they don't have money for new gear then yeah I could buy that argument. If they don't have HS but still have the majority of their other daily and encounter powers then I think the point becomes quite moot.

*I could be satisfied very simply if he somehow gave temp HP and if he couldn't do it when they were unconscious and a few other adjustments but that is neither here nor there for this argument about HS, AFAIK.

 

[WOLead]

From a past post about how I ended up viewing Healing Surges and HP in 4e:

Hit Points = Stress, Fatigue, and Pain tolerance you can take. Thus why Illusions "hurt" you, why Psychic Attacks can tear you down, why being Missed by an attack can still leave an effect, why Fear can be deadly.

0 Hit Points for PCs = Falling into Shock, likely the Hollywood version which seems to mix the medical version with the Combat Stress Reaction. The target is "unconscious", but more disconnected with reality, not caring or understanding why he should go on. Despair, Exhaustion, Physical Lack of Adrenaline to the point the body starts to slowly shut down (Ie saving throws), and likely will give up if taken too far (the -bloody hp range).

Thus why a Warlord's words can still reach the ally who is unconscious. To give them hope, a goal, to press on just a little more, to stand up and do one more task and then he can rest.

Never underestimate the power of the mind. Placebos, Adrenaline, or just simple Focus on a Goal.

Surges are more of what a PC can take Physically (& Mentally) in that day. Using a Surge is more like pushing past the barrier of shock just a little more, and feeling the pain of going past the limits. Onset of a headache, wounds that you put to the back of your mind, the trembling hands that you just simply ignore and press on. Meditation, relaxation, simply sitting back and taking an Ale Break are methods to push past the stress normally (Short rest), though you may be able to catch a breath in combat (Second Wind), while others have a prescence or a way with words that simply help you push past (Leader Words). Its why some PCs just can't recover later on, while everyone else can still charge forwards. They just can't ignore anymore of the injuries, stress, headaches, or the shaking limbs anymore then they have.

Thus for truly magical healing, is recovering from that stress without using a Surge (or recovers Surges themselves). Bards, Warlords, Clerics, Sentinels, and Ardents class features all aren't magical healing really. Its just truly inspiring or driven, you easily push past the shock. Shaman's though is, as another is healed without spending a Surge. Paladin's Lay on Hands don't so much as cure an Ally's wounds, but takes them for himself to burden so it is magical in one sense (when used on himself, more like a quick prayer/meditation of faith). Cleric's Utilities that heal without a surge, such as Cure Light Wounds utility IS magical. Cleric's Astral Seal is "magical" as it heals an ally without surges being lost.

Its also what separates the PCs from the normal monsters. They can push past their limits, where as a NPC usually cannot without magical help. Of course some NPCs are known to have Limits beyond what is the norm, such as Elite and Solos.

Thus its been in my mind, anything that recovers stress (aka HP) without the use of surges, or recovers Surges themselves, is more of the magical healing in previous editions.

The idea was okay, its just they didn't EXPLAIN Healing Surges reasonably and the players had to come up with a way to explain it. Further, it would have been nice for small rule of "For more dangerous and gritty games, reduce the number of initial healing surges by 3" giving Controllers just 2 surges a day if they had only 10 Con.

 

[EmbraCraig]

I want an explanation that doesn't follow the cause. I want me to go "okay, my character thinks 'I really need to get up here, the party will die without me.'" and through a process in the rules miraculously gets up and keeps fighting. That is where the events shape the result. I don't want the opposite which seems to occur whenever I am in a discussion about 4e mechanics. I don't want the following to happen, "Okay, I've fallen down. I roll my d20 and get back up and continue fighting." I don't want the mechanic to drive the event. I want the cause to follow from the event. Now sometimes, in my model it will be that I desperately want or need to get back up and can't. However I find that far preferable to the other way which is where I want to get up (but have no "need") and happen to be lucky enough to do so.

But the character is dying or unconscious (depending on terminology used in your edition)... they're not really in a position to decide they need to pull themselves together. I get that you're probably talking on general principle rather than for the particular case of a character of a character at 0 HP, but fair enough - as I said, I'm happy with there being a small chance of a 0HP character coming round on their own. I wouldn't like characters to be able to do it by choice - that just makes the 1st time any character is KO'd during an encounter a non-event.

Where did I say anything about leaders using their spells/powers/exploits to trigger healing to be different than 3e cleric hitting with a cure spell? If I did then I apologize. I have completely different issues with warlords shouting at fallen allies* but that is not at all what I have meant to (or recall) bringing up in this thread.

Then I've misinterpreted - apologies.

Except HS aren't fatigue. Yes there is a diminishing returns policy with them but they aren't fatigued by using a surge, they are heightened. The only time you could try and justify this "fatigue" is when they are completely spent of HS but even then it is just a resource which is out. It is like calling a PC is poor because they are out of gold to spend on more gear. If they don't have their gear AND they don't have money for new gear then yeah I could buy that argument. If they don't have HS but still have the majority of their other daily and encounter powers then I think the point becomes quite moot.

That's my take on them - HP are your short term ability to keep going in this fight, Healing Surges are your ability to keep dusting yourself off, pulling yourself together and have just as hard a fight another 3,4 or 5 times a day. Sort of an Aerobic vs Anaerobic fitness thing. Works in much the same was as HP does - the process of exhaustion etc is going on in game, but your character functions perfectly well until they have 0 left.

From a past post about how I ended up viewing Healing Surges and HP in 4e:


The idea was okay, its just they didn't EXPLAIN Healing Surges reasonably and the players had to come up with a way to explain it. Further, it would have been nice for small rule of "For more dangerous and gritty games, reduce the number of initial healing surges by 3" giving Controllers just 2 surges a day if they had only 10 Con.

The game also doesn't explain why character fight perfecly well with 1 HP left, or why wearing full plate armour makes you more difficult to hit despite but take the same amount of damage - these are all abstractions, but Surges are new as opposed to one that everyone's been used to using for years.

With you on the options for different types of games, though - hopefully 5E comes through and gives us lots of options for everything

 

[pemerton]

I want an explanation that doesn't follow the cause. I want me to go "okay, my character thinks 'I really need to get up here, the party will die without me.'" and through a process in the rules miraculously gets up and keeps fighting.

Should I infer from this that you don't like saving throws in AD&D. Because what you criticise about death saves in 4e is exactly how Gygax describes saves working in the DMG: if the roll is successful, then some explanation appropriate to character and context is offered to explain what just happened in the game.