Surprise (-20 Init) the penalty that won’t go away

[misalo1]

Surprise (-20 Init) the penalty that won’t go away

I like sending monsters in waves...

The new surprise (-20 initiative) mechanic seem a bit odd if you send in a second group of monsters. My point...

First Wave Initiative

Kobolds x5 (Init 19)
Halfling Rogue (Init 17)
Elite Kobold (Init 16)
Cleric of Pelor (Init 8)
Dwarf Fighter (Init -8, Surprised, Rolled 11)
Elf Wizard (Init -12, Surprised, Rolled 5)

After 2 rounds the Second Wave Attacks

Cave Rats x12 (Init 7)

In this case the rats slide in after the Cleric...

Now my question is: Why is the Fighter and Wizard still being punished for a bad Wisdom check?

 

[IronWolf]

In this case the rats slide in after the Cleric...

Now my question is: Why is the Fighter and Wizard still being punished for a bad Wisdom check?

If I was DM I would likely explain it by saying that 12 seconds later the fighter and wizard still haven't "come off their heels" from being surprised initially.

 

[Scribble]

I like how 4e made it a condition. They should keep it being a condition.

 

[Janaxstrus]

those who do the surprising should get a bonus, not a penalty for those surprised. IMO

Easier to count down, and negative initiative numbers irritate me

 

[IronWolf]

I like how 4e made it a condition. They should keep it being a condition.

Condition implying it could be removed or expire after "x" of rounds?

 

[keterys]

When you bring new monsters into the combat... just bring them in at the end of a round.

If surprise is a +20, why do you get that bonus over creatures that show up later that clearly aren't - any way you work it, if you're rolling initiative for creatures that enter later, you're going to run into a logic problem. So don't have them in that initiative roll at all.

 

[Kinak]

The surprised characters already got to act twice when the rats did not. If either readied an action, they could be anywhere on the initiative count. Since the rats didn't act for at least two rounds, any initiative value is fine in practice.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Scribble]

Condition implying it could be removed or expire after "x" of rounds?

Or upon meeting some circumstance(s).

I'm not a big fan of it just hurts your initiative- why not make it a condition similar to stunned? (Or just say surprised creatures are effectively stunned.) The condition would impose some sort of penalty (disadvantage being one of them, or maybe grants advantage to attackers?) that lasts until the make a Wisdom save or something.

 

[EmbraCraig]

I think it's actually a pretty neat way of doing it. It means the surprised people are pretty much guaranteed to go last, but means that people will still only get 1 action before them - rather than if you're surprised *and* roll poorly for initiative, you can find yourself beaten to a pulp before you've had a chance to do a thing.

It also means that surprise is handled by the normal combat sequence, rather than introducing a strange, restricted, single action surprise round before things get going.

Both of these things make sense to me, and appeal to by gamist side too

 

[Agamon]

I think it's actually a pretty neat way of doing it. It means the surprised people are pretty much guaranteed to go last, but means that people will still only get 1 action before them - rather than if you're surprised *and* roll poorly for initiative, you can find yourself beaten to a pulp before you've had a chance to do a thing.

It also means that surprise is handled by the normal combat sequence, rather than introducing a strange, restricted, single action surprise round before things get going.

Both of these things make sense to me, and appeal to by gamist side too

Right. Elegantly simple to use and remember. The first round, it's about who acts first, but rounds into the fight, it just tells you who acts next. If the rats roll a 7, then that's just the point in which they enter the combat.