D&D 5E I Don't Like Damage On A Miss

[Empath Negative]

The way I see it, a "miss" just means you failed to do significant damage.

The fighter never fails to do significant damage. He doesn't swing wild. He doesn't get deflected. Each attack he directs actually hits home in at least some way, no matter how thick the hide, or agile the dodger.

That's because, as a fighter, he's an awesome dude like that. In a universe where wizards can pull fire from nothing, a skilled warrior being able to always hit home at least a little bit doesn't break my suspension of disbelief.

That said, in the final game, there's gonna be other themes in the world, and if it causes you a problem, you can always pick a different one. Even in the playtest, if you swap it out for the Rogue's Lurker theme, or the Healer theme, or the Defender theme, you'll never have to play with it.

Then why have an attack roll at all? Why not just have a damage roll and be done with it?

This is effectively a hit, just without the weapon damage.


A better mechanic would be:

The Reaper's soul cries out for blood: If the Reaper misses he gains advantage on his next attack against that same foe. If the Reaper's blood lust is piqued and he lands another strike he becomes filled with blood lust and for the next three rounds the Fighter has advantage against that foe until he misses or the creature dies.

Mechanically, it's not significantly different from the current theme, except this provides a bonus to attack instead of a bonus to damage and makes it dependent on the reaper first missing and then landing a strike.

 

[mlund]

The sad part is it is a narrative conceit at the root of it.

If they wrote:

Reaper: No foe that comes within reach of your weapon can hope to stay your wrath!

When your attack roll is less than the target's AC (but not a natural 1) you still hit, but only deal your Strength Modifier in damage to the target. No additional effects for the attack hitting are triggered.

That is, however, a giant wordy mess designed only to appease horribly pedantic people like myself.

- Marty Lund

 

[Agamon]

If someone not agreeing with something meant that thing was going to fail, there would be no such thing as success.

It's odd, reading all the positive playtests around here and then this. It's like walking up to the water cooler where everyone is having a drink and there's one guy complaining that everyone is going to die of thirst....

 

[CleverNickName]

[MENTION=85179]ren1999[/MENTION]: While I might not like damage on a miss, I have nothing but good things to say about the WotC design team and their leadership. And I love playtesting. I had a job as a playtester for Nintendo back in the day, and finding bugs and exploits was my specialty.

Just keep playtesting, and keep giving feedback. That's really all we can do.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

*sigh* Here we go again, with that same "squishy hit points" argument.

Fine, you want hit points to be abstract. Aces. The fact remains: no matter how you define hit points and damage, at the end of the day, the fighter doesn't even have to roll the dice to see if he manages to kill the big bad evil guy. It's like his action doesn't even matter...no matter what, he gets to win. Call it luck, call it damage, call it "sixth sense" or whatever you want, that is still what it boils down to.

And it's boring. (Or anti-climatic, at best.) They can do better.

And even better, the hero doesn't even have to leave his couch. He can swing at the bad guy from there and miss. He can clear an entire dungeon before lunch, then call it a day!

 

[eamon]

Then why have an attack roll at all? Why not just have a damage roll and be done with it?

This is effectively a hit, just without the weapon damage.

The difference between a hit and a miss is hugely significant, even for the reaper. The dwarven fighter does an average 14 damage on a hit but just 3 on a miss.

The attack roll still matters a lot - getting a better bonus matters; as does gaining advantage or avoiding disadvantage.

The Reaper's soul cries out for blood: If the Reaper misses he gains advantage on his next attack against that same foe. If the Reaper's blood lust is piqued and he lands another strike he becomes filled with blood lust and for the next three rounds the Fighter has advantage against that foe until he misses or the creature dies.

Advantage is pretty powerful, and it doesn't stack. I think we should be careful what we wish for - handing it out too easily diminishes the other tactical options available for getting it; in particular it undermines the incentive to interact with the environment.

Not to mention that due to damage scaling, this kind of advantage gaining is going to be much more powerful than some piddling damage as levels rise.
I think the reaper is pretty good the way it is now, though perhaps it needs a damage boost.

 

[CleverNickName]

And even better, the hero doesn't even have to leave his couch. He can swing at the bad guy from there and miss. He can clear an entire dungeon before lunch, then call it a day!

You don't like the movement rules either?

 

[IanB]

It does not logically follow that doing a small amount of damage on a miss means that the fighter will automatically win.

 

[DEFCON 1]

And even better, the hero doesn't even have to leave his couch. He can swing at the bad guy from there and miss. He can clear an entire dungeon before lunch, then call it a day!

Actually... he needs to have Light of Sight, so he still needs to be in the same room.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

The problem I have with damage is that it seems to break the norm for what an attack is. Normally, a hit means meaningful contact, and a miss represents a lack of meaningful contact. Damage is dealt when you make meaningful contact. But here, either damage is being dealt without meaningful contact, or meaningful contact is being made on a miss. I assume the former.

While I'm fine with the abstract nature of hit points, damage still always has a component of injury to it, even when it's inconsequential. This is why poison and other additional effects on a hit work. Thus, I have a difficult time imagining a scene where a fighter does damage without meaningful contact. The damage is what makes the contact meaningful.

The comparison to Fireball is understandable but flawed. In 3.5 at least, fireball's save was listed as "Reflex half". A reflex save wasn't required to make the spell miss. It was required to mitigate the damage taken from the fire. Basically, do you drop prone in time? Compare that to Flaming Sphere, where a reflex save negates all damage, meaning you can actually dodge the sphere.

I get what they're going for with the Slayer theme, and I won't froth at the mouth about it, but I'd like to see a different approach.