Kobolds Are Supposed To Be Pathetic Combatants

[I'm A Banana]

Goblins, too!

A lot of the first week of feedback has been pointing out that kobolds are one-hit-kills for a lot of the PC's. Basically, that they're minions.

And people have been fairly opposed to it. Wizards auto-killing on Magic Missile and Slayers auto-killing with Reaper and everyone else just-probably-killing with whatever attack they want to use.

I like the minion-kobolds. The weak and pathetic and sad little beings that adventurers have been steamrolling over since OD&D. They are at the bottom of the food chain, and they should be.

Like other creatures on the bottom of the food chain, they're only a threat in great numbers, or when their environment is there to help them (*cough*traps*cough). I admit, the Caves of Chaos doesn't do a great job highlighting this, but, IMO, this is how kobolds should be used: little squealing speedbumps that don't put up a fight as much as they run away and force you to follow them...into trap-filled tunnels and corridors that they know, but you don't...

So auto-killing kobolds isn't a problem for me. They are supposed to be pathetic in combat. It's awesome to me when the fighter wades into a group of six of the little biters and says "I'll be back in three minutes." It's awesome when the wizard provokes them all into running into the room, and drops a Burning Hands, baking them all. It's awesome when they gang up in droves and rain rocks down on their foes from above, or try to escape through a trap-filled corridor, or when they drop you into a centipede-filled pit.

Kobolds are supposed to be pathetic combatants. The Minions of 1st-level characters in 5e. This makes it all the sweeter when they turn the tables!

 

[hafrogman]

It's awesome to me when the fighter wades into a group of six of the little biters and says "I'll be back in three minutes."

Two problems.

One, the issue isn't whether kobolds should survive a blow or not. Nobody's arguing that they shouldn't fall when hit. For some it's the verisimilitude of them dying on what is ostensibly a miss. For me, it's the fact that it removes any dice rolling from the fighter. "I point at a kobold and he dies".

Two, in toe-to-toe combat, six kobolds will tear the first-level playtest fighter a new one in less than two rounds, because he has no options beyond "I attack". They're not really pathetic. The fighter might be overkilling them by 600%, but it does him no good at all.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

the fighter needs a defensive fighting style option: +2 AC, disadvantage on all attacks or so...

would help a bit. And the cleave feat helps him too...

 

[Agamon]

Two problems.

One, the issue isn't whether kobolds should survive a blow or not. Nobody's arguing that they shouldn't fall when hit. For some it's the verisimilitude of them dying on what is ostensibly a miss. For me, it's the fact that it removes any dice rolling from the fighter. "I point at a kobold and he dies".

Two, in toe-to-toe combat, six kobolds will tear the first-level playtest fighter a new one in less than two rounds, because he has no options beyond "I attack". They're not really pathetic. The fighter might be overkilling them by 600%, but it does him no good at all.

The first issue isn't a problem with the kobold, but more with the slayer feat. I don't have a problem with the fighter killing them every turn, but the player not really having anything to do kinda sucks.

The second issue is feature, not a bug, imo. Alone, they suck. When they gang up though, better be careful.

 

[Minigiant]

Two problems.

One, the issue isn't whether kobolds should survive a blow or not. Nobody's arguing that they shouldn't fall when hit. For some it's the verisimilitude of them dying on what is ostensibly a miss. For me, it's the fact that it removes any dice rolling from the fighter. "I point at a kobold and he dies".

I don't see the issue. The dice roll is still there. The point is the kobold is pathetic.

HIT: The fighter swings the axe and chops off the kobold's head.
MISS: The fighter swings the axe, the kobold blocks with his spear, The axe cuts the spear in half, and chops off the kobold's head.

Two, in toe-to-toe combat, six kobolds will tear the first-level playtest fighter a new one in less than two rounds, because he has no options beyond "I attack". They're not really pathetic. The fighter might be overkilling them by 600%, but it does him no good at all.

And... that's the point.
The kobolds can't survive one hit... or one miss.
The fighter can't survive 6 hits.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It's all relative. Kobolds should be pathetic. Just not that pathetic.

 

[Fifth Element]

For me, it's the fact that it removes any dice rolling from the fighter. "I point at a kobold and he dies".

DM: "Sorry, pointing at the kobold does nothing. You have to attack it."

Why does a fighter have to roll dice every round? It's okay for the wizard to announce a spell and have the DM roll a save. I don't see why the fighter should have to be rolling a die to be doing something, when fighting an incredibly weak individual opponent like this.

 

[Tovec]

It's all relative. Kobolds should be pathetic. Just not that pathetic.

I agree, this is the issue.

Why are kobolds so easy to slaughter? Why aren't humans, dwarves, halflings and elves for that matter?

We are talking first level characters, who are able to stand in the midst of 8 kobolds and barely take a scratch while slaughtering EVERY SINGLE ONE.

We are talking about EVERY hit from the slayer breaking through the kobolds weapon and striking them dead.

The issue isn't that they are weak. I think everyone agrees they should be. The issue is certainly HOW WEAK and WHY SO WEAK when the party is only first level as well.

 

[Lwaxy]

I like my kobolds intelligent and witty, with lots of tricks up their sleves, and the goblins in a similar way. I play kobolds and goblins and it's fun to do whe they aren't shown as idiots.

I also don't like my kobolds or goblins falling down from sneezing at them. You'd need at least hit them full swing once

 

[Mort]

It's all relative. Kobolds should be pathetic. Just not that pathetic.

My group found them just the right amount of pathetic.

They waded through initial kobolds with extreme gusto (the dwarves making bad jokes the whole time) and cut a swath of destruction all the way to the kobold chieftain.

They kicked in the kobold chieftain's door and burst in - the mage then said:

Mage: "Do have any last words before we separate your head from your body?"

Kobold Chieftain (in halting common): "Turn around!"

The group then turns around to find 30+ kobolds ready to charge in behind them (the group had completely ignored the barracks in their loud and direct path toward the chieftain's rooms). At this point the jovial (for the group) fight turns into life or death negotiation as the group realizes they may take down many of the kobolds but there is no way they are getting out alive without some serious compromise.

As for the mechanics? The fighter's player really liked the fact that he could kill kobolds (and rats) with little effort as he felt this was something the character *should* be able to do.