The PvP Playtest

[CleverNickName]

My playtesting group and I were interested in how balanced each of the classes were with respect to each other, combat-wise. So we decided to find out the best way we knew how: on the battlefield!* We ran a four-hour Player vs. Player test, to see how the classes matched up in combat.

[SBLOCK="The Test"]1. Each battle was one-on-one.
2. The battle took place on a chessboard, with each piece randomly placed by rolling 2d8 (one for the x coordinate, one for the y.)
3. Each contest consisted of 10 battles.
4. Initiative was not rolled. Instead, Contestant No. 1 went first for 5 battles, and then Contestant No. 2 went first for 5 battles.
5. The first contestant to reduce his opponent's Hit Points to 0 or less was declared the winner.[/SBLOCK]

The results:

Fighter vs. Cleric of Pelor
If fighter won intiative: Fighter 100%, Pelor 0%
If cleric won initiative: Fighter 60%, Pelor 40%

Fighter vs. Cleric of Moradin
If fighter won initiative: Fighter 100%, Moradin 0%
If cleric on initiative: Fighter 100%, Moradin 0%

Fighter vs. Rogue
If fighter won initiative: Fighter 100%, Rogue 0%
If rogue won initiative: Fighter 100%, Rogue 0%

Fighter vs. Wizard
If fighter won initiative: Fighter 100%, Wizard 0%
If wizard won initiative: Fighter 80%, Wizard 20%

Cleric of Pelor vs. Cleric of Moradin
If Pelor won initiative: Pelor 80%, Moradin 20%
If Moradin won initiative: Pelor 40%, Moradin 60%

Cleric of Pelor vs. Rogue
If cleric won initiative: Pelor 100%, Rogue 0%
If rogue won initiative: Pelor 80%, Rogue 20%

Cleric of Pelor vs. Wizard
If cleric won initiative: Pelor 60%, Wizard 40%
If wizard won initiative: Pelor 40%, Wizard 60%

Cleric of Moradin vs. Rogue
If cleric won initiative: Moradin 100%, Rogue 0%
If rogue won initiative: Moradin 100%, Rogue 0%

Cleric of Moradin vs. Wizard
If cleric won initiative: Moradin 80%, Wizard 20%
If wizard won initiative: Moradin 60%, Wizard 40%

Rogue vs. Wizard
If rogue won initiative: Rogue 60%, Wizard 40%
If wizard won initiative: Rogue 60%, Wizard 40%

Conclusions

1. In a one-on-one fight with any other character, the fighter almost always wins. The only exceptions were when the cleric of Pelor had initiative and hit him with a scorching ray spell, or when the wizard had initiative and hit him with shocking grasp (having advantage against metal armored opponents was a huge deal for him).

2. In a one-on-one battle with any other character, the rogue almost always loses. The only exception is when he is fighting the wizard, in which case he wins 60% of the time.

3. The clerics seem more or less equally-matched against each other.

Any other conclusions?

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*Yes, I know that there is more to an effective character than "how well they fight on the battlefield." If this were a contest to see which character could unlock a trapped chest, clearly the rogue would be the most effective.

 

[B.T.]

1. In a one-on-one fight with any other character, the fighter almost always wins. The only exceptions were when the cleric of Pelor had initiative and hit him with a scorching ray spell, or when the wizard had initiative and hit him with shocking grasp (having advantage against metal armored opponents was a huge deal for him).

Sounds about right.

2. In a one-on-one battle with any other character, the rogue almost always loses. The only exception is when he is fighting the wizard, in which case he wins 60% of the time.

Also sounds about right. Rogues best be sneaking.

 

[Stormonu]

Sad to say, I've never found D&D PVP to prove much other than the character who gets initiative in the first round generally wins.

Pitting each hero against a "monster for their level" always seemed to be more useful information, at least for me.

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Also, I don't see how in Fighter vs. Wizard, the fighter wins 100%. Does the wizard not know the tactic "throw magic missile while moving away from the slower fighter?" (increasing the distance between the two by 5' every round - the chessboard fight really is detrimental to the ranged attacker) or sleep the fighter if he misses and only does miss damage from Reaper's strike?

 

[the Jester]

Since 5e is explicitly moving away from balancing all characters based solely on combat, it seems like a fairly pointless test. I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to determine with this; just looking at the character sheets it seemed likely to me that the fighter could kill the rest of the party if it came to that.

 

[GX.Sigma]

1. In a one-on-one fight with any other character, the fighter almost always wins. The only exceptions were when the cleric of Pelor had initiative and hit him with a scorching ray spell, or when the wizard had initiative and hit him with shocking grasp (having advantage against metal armored opponents was a huge deal for him).

2. In a one-on-one battle with any other character, the rogue almost always loses. The only exception is when he is fighting the wizard, in which case he wins 60% of the time.

3. The clerics seem more or less equally-matched against each other.

I'd have expected the game to be poorly balanced at this early stage, but according to these results the balance is just about perfect. Thanks!

 

[B.T.]

I'd have expected the game to be poorly balanced at this early stage, but according to these results the balance is just about perfect. Thanks!

This is off-topic, but are you the same GX.Sigma who posts on In Mala Fide?

 

[CleverNickName]

Sad to say, I've never found D&D PVP to prove much other than the character who gets initiative in the first round generally wins.

Pitting each hero against a "monster for their level" always seemed to be more useful information, at least for me.

Yep, but that was what was so interesting about this test. Sure, the fighter is going to win every battle in a one-on-one match; it's what he does. But it was interesting that the wizard or the cleric was still able to get the drop on him every now and then. I like it.

Also, I don't see how in Fighter vs. Wizard, the fighter wins 100%. Does the wizard not know the tactic "throw magic missile while moving away from the slower fighter?" (increasing the distance between the two by 5' every round - the chessboard fight really is detrimental to the ranged attacker) or sleep the fighter if he misses and only does miss damage from Reaper's strike?

I was surprised, too. And the wizard did try the withdraw tactic you describe, but it made little difference. The fighter still did damage with his crossbow every single round, hit or miss (and thanks to the wizard's low armor class, he rarely missed.) So while the wizard was plinking away for 2-5 damage (average of 3) every round with Magic Missile, the fighter was blasting him for 1-13 (average of 7) every round with a crossbow. Even so, the wizard still managed to get lucky sometimes with shocking grasp...having Advantage was a huge benefit.

Turns out, at-will Magic Missile isn't as combat-breaking as I thought. At-will Shocking Grasp is much more of a threat, especially against armored opponents.

Since 5e is explicitly moving away from balancing all characters based solely on combat, it seems like a fairly pointless test. I'm not sure exactly what you were trying to determine with this; just looking at the character sheets it seemed likely to me that the fighter could kill the rest of the party if it came to that.

The point was to have fun, Jester. We wanted to get a feel for what NPC encounters might be like in the new edition, and what these new abilities and powers would look like from the other side of the battlefield, and how balanced they were against each other. So we just treated them all like NPCs.

We all expected the fighter to win at...well, fighting. If it were a lockpicking contest, I'm fairly certain the rogue would have pwned everyone else.

I'd have expected the game to be poorly balanced at this early stage, but according to these results the balance is just about perfect. Thanks!

Yep. Fighters are the best fighters...who knew?

But if you take the fighter out of the equation and only look at the other classes, you can see that the non-combat-oriented characters are more or less equally matched.

Check out the cleric vs. cleric, for example...they are more or less equally effective on the battlefield. I had expected Laser Cleric to beat the stuffing out of the defense-oriented Hammer Cleric, but it didn't play that way. Sure, the Cleric of Pelor has an edge if he can fire off a Scorching Ray first...but if he can't, or if he is cornered and forced to use his pitiful quarterstaff or ranged attacks in melee (at Disadvantage), he is less likely to win.

Or the Wizard vs. Laser Cleric: they are more or less identical on the battlefield, standing far apart from each other and throwing spells at each other. Whoever went first got a slight edge, as expected, but the winner was essentially a coin-toss.

 

[GX.Sigma]

This is off-topic, but are you the same GX.Sigma who posts on In Mala Fide?

Definitely not.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I have never played any edition of DnD where PvP was "fair".

 

[howandwhy99]

Conclusions

1. In a one-on-one fight with any other character, the fighter almost always wins. The only exceptions were when the cleric of Pelor had initiative and hit him with a scorching ray spell, or when the wizard had initiative and hit him with shocking grasp (having advantage against metal armored opponents was a huge deal for him).

2. In a one-on-one battle with any other character, the rogue almost always loses. The only exception is when he is fighting the wizard, in which case he wins 60% of the time.

3. The clerics seem more or less equally-matched against each other.

What you have is a flat, otherwise terrain-less battlefield. And distance is very, very short. The Fighter should win in every case then, except where he loses initiative and fails his save against heavy spells. Every other class isn't built for combat and definitely not for combats without any regard for tactics based upon their particular strengths.

Strategically speaking? Every other class runs. If they must fight, they fight from advantage (not "ADVantage") and stay far away, behind cover, in shadows, and use the environment around them to their advantages. I mean, even thieves build traps.