Ability damage,should it be in the game???

[Tony Vargas]

Would it change your mind if stats went higher than 20? It was stated stats go higher. That passage was for starting characters max was 20. And I disagree if you drop someone's wis score to try and sneak by them that makes sense to me.

It would address half the problems of the idea, yes - if stats scaled like hps, which strikes me as impractical.

The other half of the problem - the 'death spiral - would remain, though.

If "stat damage" did not reduce your modifier associated with that stat, and/or if you got phantom 'stat hps' that scaled with level and buffered against actual stat loss, it might be practical - but, at that point, most of the desired gain would also be lost.


I do think that a 'grittier combat' module might be a place for penalties to stat rolls, or temporarily reduced stats, perhaps as a part of a system for tracking long-term afflictions like severe wounds, curses, diseases, or slow/progressive poisons.

 

[BobTheNob]

I voted against.

For what its worth, I actually like it in so far as what the OP suggested its virtues as being. I agree with his points.

However, my experience with stat drain isnt a rosy one. As much as it sounds great on paper, its effects at playtime arent that great. The number crunching involved tends to trip us up and the death spirals do happen.

But the worst bit? When you put a capability on a creature that is a detrimental bane to the players its going to do one of two things
1) Its going to make the challenge interesting for them, creating excitement and motivating them to win and find ways to handle better in future circumstance. The players will come out the end saying "I got my arse kicked, but that was an awesome fun"
2) Players just think it was a crap fight and are no-way interested in facing another of those again, generally losing faith because they just didnt have fun.

As much as I like ability drain, my experience is that when you hit players with it, the result is generally "option 2".

 

[Ahnehnois]

Ability damage is a wonderful mechanic that allows you do harm characters in diverse ways without having to reinvent the wheel or make up new rules for injuries and status effects. And the 5e math would seem to make it much less of a headache than it has been. I'd like to see it in some form front and center as a major part of the system.

 

[howandwhy99]

I voted optional.

Resurrection meant -1 CON permanently. (not level)
Diseases could affect ability scores IIRC
Some poisons knocked one unconscious. I'd have no problem with puffer fish "locked in" syndrome poison. (zero in STR & DEX).

I like options. It's the default from 3.x for poison damage I didn't care for. If A.S. damage can be easily incorporated, then let's show some interesting ways to include it without making them "separate HP totals" for combat.

 

[Yora]

I said yes, but the way it's handled in 3rd Edition is not neccessarily the best one.

In the end, all situation where you should have something like that, it almost always comes down the character beeing "weakened". Separating by six different ability scores doesn't really seem to add much to it.
Also, anything that can be applied easily on the fly is preferable. Instead of 5 points of Strength damage, you could have a plain -2 to attack and damage, regardless of how your Strength modifier is calculated into your weapon stats.

 

[Sadrik]

As much as I like ability drain, my experience is that when you hit players with it, the result is generally "option 2".

I agree, permanent level loss and stay loss are always a pain as a player and as a dm. However, I think stat damage with stat recovery rules are fundamental to the game. I could see it being in a module however, some pretty fancy design work would have to be done to make it optional. Status conditions can accomplish many of the same things and it seems strange to tack on subsystems when they could be handled under stat damage and recovery pretty easily. Conditions are binary on or off (or you can create a more complex track) and stat damage can be gradual both in recieving it as well as recovering it.

Example a death spell might do con damage as opposed to applying the dead condition. It is a clean design, without a lot of additional subsystems required.

 

[Shadeydm]

I think it should be a module for those who want it. I doubt very much I would use it unless it was really well done. I just don't care for its book keeping aspect. Maybe it could be made relativly painless if there is an app similar to iplay4E for DDN, who knows.

 

[Lanefan]

Ability "damage" should be in but it should be rare and-or obvious. "Ray of Enfeeblement" targets Strength, as does a hit from a Roper - both are fine. Ditto for "Feeblemind" targeting Int. But poisons etc. just doing Con. damage is kinda dull; ditto diseases.

Revival from death costing a point of Con. permanently is fine.

Permanent level drain is also fine; it makes a subset of opponents that much scarier and is also a fine (if nasty) curse to inflict now and then. 3e's "negative level" mechanic seemed far too confusing whenever I encountered it, much easier to just lose the level and have done with it.

Lanefan

 

[GX.Sigma]

Ability "damage" should be in but it should be rare and-or obvious. "Ray of Enfeeblement" targets Strength, as does a hit from a Roper - both are fine. Ditto for "Feeblemind" targeting Int. But poisons etc. just doing Con. damage is kinda dull; ditto diseases.

Revival from death costing a point of Con. permanently is fine.

Permanent level drain is also fine; it makes a subset of opponents that much scarier and is also a fine (if nasty) curse to inflict now and then. 3e's "negative level" mechanic seemed far too confusing whenever I encountered it, much easier to just lose the level and have done with it.

Lanefan

I agree with almost every part of this.

Ability drain/damage and level drain are flavorful, evocative, and traditional elements of D&D. However, they also have the potential to be a major pain. If the system makes them less of a pain, there's no reason not to include these mechanics.

The current playtest rules seem to make ability score changes easier to deal with. I'm less sure about level drain--I cannot imagine a way to do it that isn't a major pain. I've never played a game with it, but 3.x's negative level system seems OK; can you explain why you don't like it? To me it seems a lot easier than opening the book and re-calculating everything about your character (or keeping de-leveled character sheets on hand).

In any event, it's definitely something that should be used sparingly. Spells, items, and monsters that specifically do it are OK, but it shouldn't be something you just throw around: not every kind of greater undead needs energy drain, not every kind of poison needs to do ability damage.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Ability "damage" should be in but it should be rare and-or obvious. "Ray of Enfeeblement" targets Strength, as does a hit from a Roper - both are fine. Ditto for "Feeblemind" targeting Int. But poisons etc. just doing Con. damage is kinda dull; ditto diseases.

Revival from death costing a point of Con. permanently is fine.

Permanent level drain is also fine; it makes a subset of opponents that much scarier and is also a fine (if nasty) curse to inflict now and then. 3e's "negative level" mechanic seemed far too confusing whenever I encountered it, much easier to just lose the level and have done with it.

Lanefan

I'd ask why you aren't just playing AD&D, since you just described AD&D's use of 'ability damage' - inconsistent, one-off mechanics in a few spells or monsters - as what 5e should be. But, of course, I know you /are/ playing AD&D, already, anyway.

Anyway, abilities were pretty important in AD&D, but a lot of characters could remain effective even if they did get knocked down to very low strength (obviously not melee types, of course), and Feeblemind, your example that affected other stats, was another of these anti-caster provisions.

In 5e, stats are much more critical: they (almost solely, at this point) determine saves so a creature that damaged a stat it forced saves against would be an overwhelming threat, for instance.