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What to do about the 15-minute work day?

What should the designers of D&D next do to address the 15-minute work day.

  • Provide game MECHANICS to discourage it.

    Votes: 75 43.9%
  • Provide ADVICE to discourage it.

    Votes: 84 49.1%
  • Nothing (it is not a problem).

    Votes: 46 26.9%
  • Other.

    Votes: 17 9.9%

Without railroading, how can the DM force you to leave your base?*

And once you get mid-level transportation magic, how can he stop you from going to-and-fro?

* Not considering, of course, the metagame, "Hey, guys - I'd like to run an adventure where you travel to [etc.] ..." method.

Well, transportation magics can be limited, but in those games I don't have them limited, a lot can happen still. Antimagic fields (usually just limited to poreventing teleports and gateways), spellthieves, mana drains, wizard incapacitated, ritual needed that may be disrupted... I usually come up with something that makes sense.

Of course, now I remember I had a whole big party stick to their base for almost a game year, but it was still fun as I just put them under some time pressure to turn the 15 min workdays into 1-hrs workdays at least :D:D

Metagaming can be very helpful to get on the same page, I wouldn't really throw adventures at my players when I am not sure they would enjoy them. Like, my beloved murder mysteries wouldn't work in all of my groups.
 

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A game system that runs a narrow set of games

Narrow set of games? Why would planning and managing resources from both sides of the table limit your choice of game? You can still go all hack and slash or role play heavy, or urban play or dungeons. Can't think of a style that would run into problems just because the GM decides to eliminate the 15 min issue.
 

I like to set goals for my PCs instead of having the DM set them. If I want to tame the wilderness and turn my little fort into a tower that rains doom and despair across the land, then that's what the game is going to be about. I doubt that I'd always be able to retreat (or even that I'd achieve that goal!), but I want that option to exist if there's a reasonable chance that it could exist.

But there might also be a reasonable chance they don't exist. They will sometimes and sometimes they won't, so you couldn't expect them every time.

Goals for your PC are for you to set and for the GM to figure out how to fit them in. If your goal is to have a tower of operation that manages to control a fair bit of area and get back to there easily, I think that could be done without necessarily limiting your work day :)

I don't mind the 15-minute adventuring day, but I want it to be a real choice. That means that I have to balance that option against my other options. I don't want resting to always be the best option available, but I do want it to be an option.

Ah, if you don't mind short days, it is of course less of an issue already. It isn't that hard for a GM to add useful options here, either, like "rest here and lose precious time/the guy you are chasing (with the option to find him later)/miss some event or go on and risk not having all your options."

I expect a game that contains limited resources and the ability to refresh them to have a balance between refreshing those resources and going on without them. Or at least help to provide that balance.
That's the point, I think. It makes the occasional short day not an issue. My groups usually think similar, so it is not that we don't have short days (I think record was 5 min battle and rest afterwards) it is just not been an issue.
 

Ok, so you have a mechanic that prevents the players from going nova and blowing all of their resources all at once.

Now what happens when the players need to go nova?

Perhaps they have had a string of bad rolls, perhaps they aren't brilliant tacticians, perhaps they are fighting the BBEG and need to make them fall no mater the cost.

I don't think removing the option to nova is a good idea.
 

Ok, so you have a mechanic that prevents the players from going nova and blowing all of their resources all at once.

Now what happens when the players need to go nova?
They retreat, they fluke a victory or they suffer a defeat. Sometimes things just get too tough and the PCs have to work out how to get out of a bad situation. Requiring a caster to Nova just suckers the PCs in to keep fighting when they should bug out. Extending the range of the PCs into "Nova" range gives too much discrepancy between a party at their best and a party at their average. This is the factor I believe is at the heart of the whole 5MW thing - being a central issue for some but not others.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
 

Ok, so you have a mechanic that prevents the players from going nova and blowing all of their resources all at once.

Now what happens when the players need to go nova?

Perhaps they have had a string of bad rolls, perhaps they aren't brilliant tacticians, perhaps they are fighting the BBEG and need to make them fall no mater the cost.

I don't think removing the option to nova is a good idea.
I have experienced exactly that problem with the 3E Warlock. Some people look at "what, xd6 damage at will - that's OP". Until they get in their first EL = PL +4 or more encounter and see that xd6 damage cannot be boosted to turn the tide in this encounter.

No, that's why they need to adress the balance problem, without necessarily fixing the potential of going nova. The balance problem is that only some classes can go nova at all, since they are the one with daily limited powers, and these abilites are balanced only with the idea in mind that there is an average number of encounters and they must spread them out. Forget that assumption - assume in fact that people do never have encounters that fall in the average, and give every class "nova" capabilities.

That's exactly what D&D 4 did. If I have a 15 minute adventure day there, the WIzard and Cleric/CoDZilla doesn't get to dominate the game. Everyone contributes with his own daily resources.
 

Either I have to chuck out the whole rationale behind the campaign (which means I've wasted my time designing it in the first place), or you have to accept the world blowing up not long after your shiny new tele-net opens for business because you've left the adventuring until far too late. :)

[sblock=On teleport networks and the end of the world]I think there's some kind of miscommunication going on here. What I'm reading this as is "You're not adventuring unless you do what the DM expects you to do." I don't think that's what you're saying, though, so maybe a clarification of what you mean by "adventure" would help?

I think creating a teleport network is adventuring because: at low levels you need to gather cash, XP, and contacts. The best way to get this is to adventure. At mid-levels you might start using your cash on research to develop a way to create a teleport network without having to cast 9th-level spells. This would probably mean political intrigue - getting access to a library to research, getting access to NPCs who can do the research, gaining allies and dealing with enemies. At high levels you put what you've discovered into place and start heading out to other cities - which gives the DM a chance to add city elements that wouldn't fit in the original city, the "added depth" - to forge treaties, fight wars, and work out trade deals.

As this is going on, you're getting involved in the plots and backstory of the campaign world - so if there is something that will end the world in five years, its likely that you'll stumble across it. Obviously "the end of the world" is an extreme example, because there's no option - how much energy should I put in my teleport network vs. saving the world isn't really a choice. If the backstory was something smaller, like some guys are trying to perform regime change, then I've got some decisions to make. Can I work with these guys? Who do I want to support? What will be best for my teleport network?

Is that what you meant by putting off adventure - single-mindedly pursuing a goal to the exclusion of all other considerations? That's not what I had in mind when I said I like to achieve the goal I set for my PC. It's more like: given this campaign setting, what goal will be interesting for everyone at the table? Once that question is settled, I want to make choices - about how best to achieve my goal given the challenges that the campaign world poses, how to balance that with the goals of my strongest allies (the other PCs), and if I want to change what my goal is.[/sblock]

One of the problems with the 15-minute adventuring day and goal-oriented play is that, as I said before, if taking a rest doesn't have any cost then I might as well do that. (Assuming that taking a rest is going to refresh those resources that help you achieve your goals.) I want to make a choice about pressing on vs. resting. How much can I get done today while still making sure I'm safe if a group of drow decide to get their revenge for my past deeds?

I think this is a difficult thing to do as DM, but I think it's relatively easy for the system to do it. The system can have rules for wandering monster checks, a method to determine how much more powerful NPCs and their organizations get, and other ways to spend your down-time, among other things. If the novice or lazy DM (like me!) decides not to spend too much time thinking about that but instead applies the (hopefully) simple rules, he can say, "Hey, look at that, the NPCs whom the PCs have pissed off just got access to an assassin squad. Off to kill the PCs, then!" Or other things: that vein of gold in the ground is now being mined by duergar. The bandits who kidnapped the princess didn't get their ransom and now the peace her marriage was going to create hasn't happened.

I think a system can be a great asset here. Coming up with a good one that gives various DMs enough flexibility for different campaigns is tricky.
 

I think we're in agreement, but I wanted to expand on this a little more:

But there might also be a reasonable chance they don't exist. They will sometimes and sometimes they won't, so you couldn't expect them every time.

I agree. One of the things I find interesting about D&D is that these situations crop up - where you get yourself into trouble. I enjoy it when it's my own poor choices that lead to these situations: "Crap, I spent too much time building my stupid little fort. Now the bandits have gathered allies by promising them a share of my loot, and my fort's not strong enough to protect me."

[sblock=Effect and cause]In my 3E game: Mulhorand is after me because...
< we killed a lot of important NPCs because...
< we burned down the Mulhorandi fleet because...
< we were greedy and over-confident because...
< we didn't do a very good job gathering intel because...
< we were over-confident and wanted to get our mission to gather intel on the fleet for the Thayans over with as quickly as possible because...
< the Thayans made us an offer we couldn't refuse because...
< we ended up on a Thay-controlled island by mistake because...
< Plane Shift is only accurate to 5 - 500 miles and we had to cast it because...
< we were in Sigil selling our loot without drawing attention from the drow because...
< we tried to kill a drow princess but she got away with a Word of Recall because...
< I miscast Teleport and ended up in a drow-controlled dungeon because...
< I had to cast Teleport to get the loot we left behind in a dungeon because...
< Plane Shift is only accurate to 5 - 500 miles and we had to cast it because...
< we had to Plane Shift to Sigil to get a high-level Cleric to cast Restoration because...
< we triggered an Enervation trap because...
< we weren't very careful when looking for traps.

(I'm leaving out the part about the Geas-ed adult red dragon, the ancient green dragon vampire, and the pride and belligerence that led to it all.)[/sblock]
 


I think we're in agreement, but I wanted to expand on this a little more:

*chuckle* Such chain of events happen all the time. You know you really turned the game world upside down when your GM request a toilet break and takes his game books with him. :D
 

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