Well, that's why I was thinking a lazy warlord - other people do the fighting, not you! (For rituals, add in a hybrid bard with Vicious Mockery and a couple of other non-weapon powers.)
Immunities, Resistances, and High level play.
- Thread starter Minigiant
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Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
I actually do not think that a Cold Elemental should be immune to cold or a Fire Elemental should be immune to fire.Why should you have problems against undead? What's special about undead that makes them immune to cold?
Ie, why would anything other than a theoretical "Cold Elemental" be immune to cold?
I was going to ask the same question of the Remorhaz, since it's a creature that generates heat in order to live in cold environments... but turns out it's not immune or even resistant.
Even if these things are 100 % made out of the element they are, why would this protect them anymore? I am not immune to damage from fists despite my body being composed out of the same elements as fists.
They should certainly have decent resistances against this type of damage, but one thing to consider here is that any "non-natural" source of the element - spells, magic items - is also an ability that grants the wielder power over that element. A Wizard can use his magical knowledge to create fire - Fireball grants him power over fire. And now the Wizard that has mastered fire encounters a hostile Fire Elemental cannot exert his wondrous control over fire to bend it to his will? If he casts Fireball on the Fire Elemental, he's basically ripping parts away from the Elemental for his spell - that gotta hurt the Elemental!
Now, if you want to go into "process-simulation" of this, you probably would need to say more than "Fire Mage - Ignores 5 point of fire resistance and treats fire immunity as fire resistance 15".
You may write something like:
Fire Elemental
Creature of Flames
A Fire Elemental is composed entirely of elemental fire, and thus is difficult - if not outright dangerous - to harm by fire.
- Resist Fire 15 (Special: Fire Elementals ignore fire damage from any natural source)
- When the Fire Elemental is hit by an attack that inflicts fire damage, it gains a +2 bonus to its speed and deals +5 additional fire damage with every attack.
- If a Fire Elemental is bloodied or reduced to 0 hit points by a fire attack, the creature that dealt the damage can choose to dominate (save ends) the elemental (if doing so when it would drop to 0 hit points, it retains 1 hit poin) and gains temporary hit points equal to the damage inflicted. Aftereffect: The Fire Elemental deals +5 damage against the source of the damage.
OR
Fire Mage
You have mastered the element of fire and know how to use it to its best effect
When you target a creature with fire resistance, you can reduce that resistance by 5 points.
When you deal fire damage to a creature with immunity to fire, you inflict untyped damage equal to your damage roll -15, representing you exerting control over the pure elemental nature protecting the creature.
I don't understand the aversion to immunities some people have in some cases. But that is a suspension of disbelief thing. I can fully accept a fire elemental being immune to fire. I can also accept all demons and hell beast being immune to "normal" fire as well. I am immune to water damage. Only by giving the water a secondary damage tpe like fire, cold or piercing will it ever cause me harm. Others can't accept or don't like that.
This can complicate things but I would believe immunities as core with a "No Immunities Night Resistance" module would be best.
This can complicate things but I would believe immunities as core with a "No Immunities Night Resistance" module would be best.
Chris_Nightwing
First Post
[MENTION=710]Mustrum_Ridcully[/MENTION]
I think it depends on what you consider magical fire to be. If it's the summoning of raw fire straight from the elemental plane of fire shaped into an explosive force, then the elemental ought to be immune. If it's the extraction of the natural fire that exists in your material component (Greek-style elements here) into an explosive force then, yes, I like your approach that you could 'extract' some of that fire from the elemental itself.
I kind of prefer the idea that feeding a fire elemental lots of fire spells makes it stronger, but that a spell probably exists to control fire elementals, which a fire mage would be better at casting. Maybe they need to define their (meta)physics a little in the DMG to explain some of these decisions.
I think it depends on what you consider magical fire to be. If it's the summoning of raw fire straight from the elemental plane of fire shaped into an explosive force, then the elemental ought to be immune. If it's the extraction of the natural fire that exists in your material component (Greek-style elements here) into an explosive force then, yes, I like your approach that you could 'extract' some of that fire from the elemental itself.
I kind of prefer the idea that feeding a fire elemental lots of fire spells makes it stronger, but that a spell probably exists to control fire elementals, which a fire mage would be better at casting. Maybe they need to define their (meta)physics a little in the DMG to explain some of these decisions.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Or is it - what if you you summon that raw fire in the exact space where he is, replacing the fire he is made of and belongs to him into somethhing, tearing him apart? Or the connection to the elemental plane draws him back to the place where he rightfully belongs?
Elementals seem to distinct entities - there is fire that belongs to him, and there is some that doesn't. Otherwise, shouldn't a small fire elemental turn into a gigantic fire elemental when he enters a forest fire, or at least teleport to any location in that fire? (Or is this just an error the designers had yet to fix?). Why would we have to assume that the fire-that-is-not-him gives always way to the fire-that-is-him, and never the opposite? Because it has a mind? But my mind doesn't always protect me from other carbon-based organic matter, even if it's inert matter.
What I like to see with stuff like fire elementals and similar creatures is that attacking them with their element is a risky proposition and comes with drawbacks - but is not necessarily totally ineffective. Stuff like a Fire Elemental burning even hotter after a fireball (even if it hurt him in some way) and becoming more dangerous.
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Chris_Nightwing
First Post
Well that's a question of metaphysics.
I could imagine a fire elemental being a life force capable of binding a certain quantity of fire, any fire, to make a physical form. If more fire comes along then it doesn't bother the life force's ability to maintain it's form, some fire goes, some comes, it maintains a particular quantity of fire according to how awesome a life force it is. This sort of elemental would be healed when more of its element hits it - a water elemental in an ocean would never die, an air elemental flying equally. It's only when you encounter these things outside of their normal environment that they become killable, and even then only certain weapons and magic will do anything. This is probably just me though, wanting elementals to be awesome beings of fundamental power.
Now the option you describe is for living elements, rather than life-forces using elements. So a fire elemental is living fire, it's distinct from normal fire. If you throw water on it, this may have no effect because it's not normal fire, or maybe it still has fire-like properties. If you use a flamethrower on this being it might indeed be upset, because whatever fuels its fire has been consumed by ordinary fire, so whilst the heat does nothing, it still suffers damage. To me, this creature is not a fire elemental, but something distinct.
To me an elemental is a magical spirit or aura that binds an elemental force together in a form. It is much like magnets attracted to magnets. One bit of the elemental magnet contains the elemental's mind.
You defeat an elemental by separating or altering the elemental until there is not enough elemental stuff to support the mind and it dissipates. This means elemental attacks of the same element does not harm the elemental as the attack adds to it.
You defeat an elemental by separating or altering the elemental until there is not enough elemental stuff to support the mind and it dissipates. This means elemental attacks of the same element does not harm the elemental as the attack adds to it.
keterys
First Post
I'm pretty sure a firehose, geyser, or landing in water with enough force can all damage you. Also, drowning.
You're no more immune to water than you're immune to hand... A hand might caress or touch you and cause no damage, but that hardly means it _can't_ damage you.
Things being immune to stuff breaks my suspension of disbelief. It's almost never logical. Immunities also cause play problems with various tropes. So... it makes the most sense for immunity to only exist in core when absolutely necessary, and a module to allow throwing around a lot more immunity for a more super heroes game.
I am not immune to firehose because of the water damage. I am not immune because it also deal piercing and bludgeoning damage. Drowning is not water damage either. The water is not killing me. It is the lack of oxygen. That is...like.. vacuum damage or something. The water pet of the water don't hurt me anymore than the fire part of the fireball hurts a lava monster or fire elemental.
Minigiant: Immune to water, feathers, popcorn, marshmallows, peas.
Minigiant: Immune to water, feathers, popcorn, marshmallows, peas.
keterys
First Post
Yeah... that's a very silly way to look at it. Either let something be a damage type or don't. If a fire elemental has a sword made of fire and it swings into you (or claws, or whatever)... historically it does fire damage. If you want it to be fire and slashing, sure, whatever.
Similarly, that "firehose" of water isn't much different from a "dragon breath" of <insert anything>.
Magic missile deals force, not force + bludgeoning, or force + piercing.
Immunity to damage types gets dumb under the way they've been handled for over 30 years. If you want to redo all of the damages to address that, that's potentially interesting...
Similarly, that "firehose" of water isn't much different from a "dragon breath" of <insert anything>.
Magic missile deals force, not force + bludgeoning, or force + piercing.
Immunity to damage types gets dumb under the way they've been handled for over 30 years. If you want to redo all of the damages to address that, that's potentially interesting...
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