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D&D 5E You can't necessarily go back

However, I still feel as though -with 4E- I've never really gotten a chance to run the style of game I'd like to run.

With great fortune, I've experienced the opposite. I found the underlying system incredibly flexible/bendable. To the point that as I got better acquainted with the framework behind the game I've been able to run the game in a multitude of styles with very small alterations to the base framework. With small modifications I've been able to run the gamut from super-gritty to ultra-gonzo, and the game played well within each style. Like I said, I had to make modifications, but the modifications were minimal compared to what I had to do when I had to houserule 3.X.

It also helps that I have a pretty awesome regular group that lets me run wild at times.

When I was running mid-high level 3.x the game became an immense chore, even when I limited sources to core only. With 4e, I've run games at every tier and even with an open policy for all types of material and the game has never felt like work. That to me is the most important part of the system, from the DM side.
 

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With great fortune, I've experienced the opposite. I found the underlying system incredibly flexible/bendable. To the point that as I got better acquainted with the framework behind the game I've been able to run the game in a multitude of styles with very small alterations to the base framework.
My goodness, yes, this. Once I decided to just roll my own adventures rather than trying to rehab WotC's awful ones, I found that the system really sings from my side of the screen.

YMMV naturally, but I have not found another game where something like designing monsters is such a joy.

-O
 

With great fortune, I've experienced the opposite. I found the underlying system incredibly flexible/bendable. To the point that as I got better acquainted with the framework behind the game I've been able to run the game in a multitude of styles with very small alterations to the base framework. With small modifications I've been able to run the gamut from super-gritty to ultra-gonzo, and the game played well within each style. Like I said, I had to make modifications, but the modifications were minimal compared to what I had to do when I had to houserule 3.X.

It also helps that I have a pretty awesome regular group that lets me run wild at times.

When I was running mid-high level 3.x the game became an immense chore, even when I limited sources to core only. With 4e, I've run games at every tier and even with an open policy for all types of material and the game has never felt like work. That to me is the most important part of the system, from the DM side.


I would agree 100% that running the game is easy. I've just had a hard time running the style of game I'd prefer with it; not without doing a lot of work anyway.

Just to clarify: I'm not suggesting I didn't have issues with 3rd. As I said in a different thread, the unusual thing is that 4E fixed a lot of problems I had with 3rd, but then it introduced others. Somehow, they took a bunch of pieces which looked good to me in isolation and built something which I found to be extremely at odds with my ideals about tabletop gaming.
 

You said a lot of things that I agree with (as well as some I didn't,) but this stuck out to me as being particularly odd. I don't feel 4E is gritty at all.

It isn't. In no way is 4e gritty. 3.5 on the other hand is positively lubricated.

This is one of those statements like "4e is deadlier than 3e" that is completely untrue on its face. 4e's game design is one in which characters:

• Heal to full with six hours of rest.
• Survive several hits before dropping.
• Usually heal to full between encounters.
• Have character classes that heal by shouting encouragement.
• Will almost always survive a critical hit.
• Start as "heroes" from the day they are created.

The only way that 4e is less gritty is when DMs hand out wands of cure light wounds like candy (which hasn't happened in any 3e/Pathfinder game I've ever run in). 4e is designed to be less gritty straight out of the box.

You mean that 3.5 is non-gritty when DMs actually play by the rules as written. Wealth by level rules exist, so do crafting rules, so does expected treasure. In my experience there needs to be either a soft or a hard houserule that "We do not take wands of Cure Light Wounds or Wands of Lesser Vigour" before you can approach grit. Because a wand of CLW takes all of one day and 375 GP to craft. The expected wealth by level of a second level PC is 900GP (1000GP in Pathfinder). Which means that a well equipped party of second level or higher should start with at least one for 750GP.

Not hand them out? You need to actively houserule to prevent them from existing at all or put the PCs through PTSD by never allowing them one single day of downtime. And if you houserule item creation, I'm going to houserule extended rests (I do anyway because it makes for a better game).

Nod. But, that doesn't have to result in imbalance if the Fighter also had balanced abilities in each of the other two 'pillars.'

This is D&D we are talking about here?

It doesn't have an SRD you can use to play it. It's not part of the open-source d20 universe.

Some of us are working on that.
 

As open-ended campaign play and one-off/tournament play place very different and at times incompatible demands on the core design of the game, which type of play should the game as a whole be designed for?

The answer, of course, is open-ended campaign. 2e was the peak for this, 3e moved away from it a bit and 4e inexplicably moved away yet further. (how many 3+ year 4e campaigns have you seen?)
I'm not sure why you say that 4e moves away from open-ended campaigns. It has clear rules for PCs from 1 to 30. It has high level PCs which can be complex to build and play cold, but benefit from being developed and played organically over time. And it has numerous suggestions, in a range of sourcebooks , for possible campaign arcs drawing on the published material(DMG2, Underdark, Plane Above, Plane Below, plus I think others that I've forgotten).

My own 4e campaign has been going since early 2009, is currently at 17th level, and (on current projections) has another 2 or so years to run.

From what I saw higher levels were just number adjusted versions of lower levels.
Number-wise, that's true, and again by design. However, the capabilities of the PCs broaden continually, their abilities become vastly more effective, the threats they face are trickier, and the nature of the campaign changes
I agree with Obryn here (and posted about this in the "Flat Maths" thread). The fiction changes pretty significantly: PCs become Knight Commanders, or Questing Knights, or Demonskin Adepts, or Divine Philosophers (to pull out some of the more evocative paragon paths - not all are as interesting, or embedded in an expanding fiction, as these), and then in due course become demigods, chosen, emergent primordials, or other appropriately epic protagonists. And their antagonists go from being the traditional humanoid rabble, to te most powerful figures of the various mythical worlds: demon princes, archfey, and even gods.

The fun part of higher levels in 4e isn't that the maths changes (it is flat, because of the uniformity and transparency of scaling); it's that the fiction changes. The fictional stakes become higher and more complex. This is one of several respects in which 4e resembles some indie RPGs.

I know a lot of intelligent, creative twenty-somethings who enjoy nerdy fiction-George R.R. Martin, comic books and their movies, Dragon Age and The Witcher, Battlestar Galactica, etc.-who have no idea what D&D is.

<snip>

Their cultural touchstones are R-rated movies and HBO shows, they like shakycam and nonheroic protagonists. They want verisimilitude and real-world relevance in their fiction.
Then I would point them to games like The World, the Flesh and the Devil (it's free, and a single html page of less than 1000 words) or anything by Vincent Baker. I wouldn't particularly be looking to any version of D&D to satisfy those aesthetic desiderata (although in my own view more can be done with D&D tropes than might sometimes be recognised).
 

It isn't. In no way is 4e gritty. 3.5 on the other hand is positively lubricated.
Maybe 'RAW,' but it doesn't take much to shovel the grit onto 3.5 - ban PC classes (or caster classes), for instance. OK, it's a major change, but it's an easy one. Don't follow wealth by level guidelines, have the PCs scrabbling for silver through level 10. Should get plenty gritty.

4e it's not so simple, because there aren't a lot of ready-made 'gimp options' for PCs, and less dependence on magic and wealth for basic things like healing. Dark Sun manages some grit with 'survival days,' and so forth, but it's still awfully 'heroic' grit...

You could always re-skin things in 4e to have more gritty flavor, but building it into the mechanics would take more work than banning a few classes and giving out a pittance for treasure.
 

I'm not sure why you say that 4e moves away from open-ended campaigns. It has clear rules for PCs from 1 to 30.
Probably the pace of leveling. 3e and 4e put everyone on the same exp chart, and advancement is quicker. 10-13 encounters/level, in 4e. If you run 3-encounter games every week, that's about 12 levels a year - you wouldn't, see many campaigns like that topping 3 years, because everyone would've hit 30th and retired. AD&D experience, though, hits OMG at name levels, and it can take a year of play to go up one level after that, you can run games for a long, long time, and, while some classes top out, and others get basically nothing for leveling after a while (ooh, 3 hps), some have spell/day charts that go over 20, and can clearly be extended ad infinitum, if you so desired. So a campaign - particularly a campaign made up of humans that aren't Druids, Assassins, Monks, or Bards with maybe a few non-/demi-human thieves - can quite literally go on forever.
 

Probably the pace of leveling. 3e and 4e put everyone on the same exp chart, and advancement is quicker. 10-13 encounters/level, in 4e. If you run 3-encounter games every week, that's about 12 levels a year - you wouldn't, see many campaigns like that topping 3 years, because everyone would've hit 30th and retired. AD&D experience, though, hits OMG at name levels, and it can take a year of play to go up one level after that, you can run games for a long, long time, and, while some classes top out, and others get basically nothing for leveling after a while (ooh, 3 hps), some have spell/day charts that go over 20, and can clearly be extended ad infinitum, if you so desired. So a campaign - particularly a campaign made up of humans that aren't Druids, Assassins, Monks, or Bards with maybe a few non-/demi-human thieves - can quite literally go on forever.
OK, although I think that sort of campaign is probably an outlier. [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION] achieves slow levelling by keeping the AD&D XP charts but dropping XP-for-treasure, and a similar decelleration (divide XP by half, or five, or ten) would be viable in 3E or 4e, I think.

And anyway, once the PCs in a 4e game reach 30th level the game can continue: they won't get any more levels, but they can still find treasure, and you could very easily adopt a rule like 1 permitted retrain every 200,000 XP.
 

Maybe 'RAW,' but it doesn't take much to shovel the grit onto 3.5 - ban PC classes (or caster classes), for instance. OK, it's a major change, but it's an easy one. Don't follow wealth by level guidelines, have the PCs scrabbling for silver through level 10. Should get plenty gritty.

4e it's not so simple, because there aren't a lot of ready-made 'gimp options' for PCs, and less dependence on magic and wealth for basic things like healing. Dark Sun manages some grit with 'survival days,' and so forth, but it's still awfully 'heroic' grit...

You could always re-skin things in 4e to have more gritty flavor, but building it into the mechanics would take more work than banning a few classes and giving out a pittance for treasure.

Somewhere, I have a notebook with a few tweaks I used which seemed to work. When I find it, I'll post the details. Off the cuff, most of it revolved around changing how Solos and Elites work. I had a category of monster which I used as an 'elite' which had the HP and defenses of a normal monster, but with the benefits of being an elite (i.e. actions points and maybe a special trick or two.) Likewise, I did the same with Solos. They had HP and such consistent with an elite, but the benefits of a solo.

My reason for doing this was to reduce grind. However, I also found that I felt more comfortable adding more moving pieces to encounters which involved 'solos' and 'elites' since they didn't take up such a huge chunk of encounter XP budget. As such, I rewrote the XP guidelines to allow for more creatures in each encounter. I also used more minions than the guidelines state. (The minion thing did later become errata I believe, but I don't remember.)

Another thing I did was rework a lot of the math the game world is built with. RAW 4E -in my experience- makes the world too fragile compared to the numbers which PCs can regularly generate. In contrast, some of the obstacles which are easy for PCs are very difficult for monsters. I'm still not sure I got things right here, but it seemed to sorta work. I may have done more work on it had 4E had a longer lifespan.

Another area I started to do work on but didn't finish was saving throws. I always felt saves were too binary. I feel the disease/condition track should have been used for more things in 4E. I was working on a way for wounds, save or suck effects, and various other things to work on a condition track. A failed save, and the condition worsens. Once I started tinkering with that, I looked at using a similar idea for crafting.

Say a weapon had the broken condition because of being sundered. A PC could roll what would essential be a heal check to aid the weapon (with the skill used depending upon the item in question.) On a good roll, the item would improve on the condition track. If it were to get worse, you would need to seek out a blacksmith more skilled than you to get it fixed/crafted/whatever.

Taking a broader view, it seems to me that skill challenges are more-or-less an extended condition track. In this area, I had two influences: the disease track of D&D 4E and 'contests' from GURPS 4E. Instead of skill challenges being so yes/no, there are degrees of failure and success. This may mean there's no set limit to the amount of rolls for something. That is to say there's no set number of X good rolls before Y. Instead, each roll is given meaning. Depending on how the condition of the situation changes, it may be that no more rolls are possible at that point in time.

While none of those things looks especially gritty, I did feel it gave me a little more granularity. With that granularity, I started to fine tune things more. Looking at how the 5E math progresses so far, sometimes I'm curious if the designers were looking at a post I once made on the WoTC boards and just tweaked the idea slightly. Very doubtful, but sometimes I wonder.
 

With great fortune, I've experienced the opposite. I found the underlying system incredibly flexible/bendable. To the point that as I got better acquainted with the framework behind the game I've been able to run the game in a multitude of styles with very small alterations to the base framework. With small modifications I've been able to run the gamut from super-gritty to ultra-gonzo, and the game played well within each style. Like I said, I had to make modifications, but the modifications were minimal compared to what I had to do when I had to houserule 3.X.

Absolutely. However, I think you can accomplish a lot of this without too much house-ruling. My standard game has a few specific changes such as + 1 damage/2 levels for all creatures/hazards (and an extra + 1/tier for single target attacks and traps/hazard abilities), etc built into it so all means of HP attrition is elevated and a significantly higher level of threat. Beyond that, you can easily produce scenarios such as "Appalachian Trail Attrition", "Lost in the Forest/Jungle/Desert" (or exposure to any ruthless environmental conditions) by leveraging:

1) Handling Fatigue/Exhaustion by way of Disease Track mechanics.
2) An Extended Very Difficult Skill Challenge where a failed check is extremely punitive (healing surges, gaining a condition such as "Fatigued, Exhausted, Disease", moving along in the "disease track" for any relevant condition).
3) Keep the heat on the characters with further non-sentient threats or hazards or the possibility of combat encounters with severely diminished resources.

This isn't something I would do all of the time, but I ran one of these over the course of 3 sessions and it was fantastic. The tension at the table was palpable. The "Environmental Exposure" condition that 2 of the 3 of them were perpetually suffering had them unable to take an extended rest and then unable to take a short rest. After the 1st day, for much of the next two days, 2 of the 3 characters (we run with 3) had 0 healing surges and 0 encounter powers and no way to restore them. Once their Dailies were spent, the fear was immense. 1 of the PCs improved on the condition track and thus got back their ability to take short rests (and thus regain encounter powers) on the third day. However, both of them still had no healing surges and no Dailies for the final day. All in all, all 3 characters spent an extraordinary amount of the 3 day period with 1/4 to 1/2 of total to 0 healing surges, no encounter powers and no daily powers.

It was brutal. 2 failed High Difficulty Extended Skill Challenges and a barely achieved third (if they wouldn't have won the third, it would have almost assuredly have been a TPK). A very, very easy way to "grimify" 4th edition.
 

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