What's The Best Monster Book?

[I'm A Banana]

The question that springs to mind is: Why do I have to choose between the two? I want both!

Me too! I think it's possible. While I wouldn't want a stat block quite so tethered to the grid as 4e's, I think the basic lessons learned in 4e can be greatly useful in making 5e's MM something that has the best of both worlds.

To which I'd also add streamlining and making more sense of 1e and 2e's finer points of adventure generation (such as lairs, random monster tables, etc.).

Your inability to derive adventure ideas from reading statblocks is your failing, not the statblocks'.

I don't want to think too hard about my imaginary gumdrop elf world, guess I'm not allowed to play D&D.

I'm not really convinced that a game about heroic adventure shouldn't include ideas for heroic adventure in its book of things that can cause you to undertake a heroic adventure. But I'm a well known lunatic and a blasphemer to boot, I'm sure, so my ideas are certainly to be burned in a pyre.

 

[GreyICE]

Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale

Starts out by describing the Nentir Vale (after the obligatory "how to use a stat block" section that so many monster manuals have forgotten about). The design was PERFECT for inserting monsters into your campaign. I'll just grab a short exerpt to demonstrate:

Alien entities from a dead universe, plague demons have the
same chaotic and destructive nature as demons from the
Abyss deep within the Elemental Chaos. Unleashed upon the
natural world, they are a virulent irifection that spreads like
wildfire through a parched forest.

A ritual undertaken in ancient times released the
exarchs of the demon lord of a dead universe, a universe
where the demon lord succeeded in conquering
its Abyss but also inadvertently destroyed the planes
around it. Brought to the natural world, these exarchs
planned to establish the Abyssal plague, unleash hordes
of plague demons, and open the way for their demon
lord to step into this existence.

Heroes of the age stepped forward to disrupt the
ritual, and the threat of the plague demons seemed
to have been dealt with. Recently, however, one of the
exarchs escaped from its ancient prison, and the demon
lord found a host in the natural world.
Now the Abyssal plague has ignited a fever that
burns throughout the land. Plague demons of various
forms have begun to appear, threatening civilized
settlements across the Nentir Vale. The very touch of a
plague demon can pass along a debilitating disease that
can lead to death or even transformation in rare cases.
The alien disease is capable of turning humans and
other natural creatures into plague demons.

It's like, you read something like that, and you immediately have five ideas for a campaign involving the monsters. What they do, what they are, how the heroes might stop the threat, all of that. Right there.

The stat blocks are unbelievable. Reading a 2E or 3E monster stat block, in retrospect, is uninspiring, and frequently an exercise in grabbing another book (Can cast Thornwall as a Druid of the 12th level, okay, lemme go grab the book that's in, oh, can cast this other spell, lemme go look that up too).

The 4E stat block, on the other hand, perfectly captures the nature of the beast. A simple trait that spices up combat. A plague on their standard attack that can turn the players into a Chaos Beast if they don't cure it (And people say 4E is less lethal~) and a standardized Resistance trait for demons that represents their chaotic nature. On top of that they have between 1-3 abilities to differentiate different strains of the beasts.

It completely changed how I looked at monster manuals. From bestiaries I could peruse to make encounters into adventure hooks and campaign themes built around a tight package that told the players, better than my narrative "these are all part of a central theme."

 

[I'm A Banana]

For me personally, that MV fluff is kinda weak. I was kind of lost in the first six words there. It doesn't have a bad little adventure seed in there, but it's kind of over-the-top and overwrought. The 2e black dragon's suggestion of hating people and tainting water and prefering to wait in ambush are all things about the creature you can use to build with the creature. For the plague demons, the similar adventure hook is their diseased touch. Which can be good. But if I use plague demons, I've gotta accept a whole dead universe and the ability to cross from it to this one and some sort of exarch stirring in the elemental chaos? Man, all I have to do is planning for this one night, I don't want a whole 30-level campaign arc, I just want a dungeon, some monsters, some NPC's, some adventure hooks, and some support for the three pillars.

It's sort of like they gave me "campaign arc," when what I wanted was "adventure ideas," y'know?

That's just me. It clearly works for you and that's awesome. Because it's awesome to include the adventure ideas with the monster stuff! And that's part of what makes 4e's MV the strongest 4e monster book IMO. I still think 2e's is better (the density and support for lairs psychology make it better in this respect for me), but the 4e MV is a stab in the right general direction.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Every monster is a story.

Correction. Every monster is two stories. The first story is the backstory. Why the monster is there - which is a mix of its habitat and its motivations. The second is the immediate story - what do they do when they meet the PCs, whether as adversaries or not.

In terms of immediate story, 4e monsters through their statblocks show you exactly what they will try and do in combat at a level of detail that kicks the arse of any previous monster manual so hard it goes flying over the goalposts. (I said more about this in the post that prompted KM to create this thread). In terms of confrontation, giving the monsters a few explicit skills is extremely useful, putting 3e and 4e ahead of previous editions for most mundane monsters. On the other hand both lose ground in different ways; 3.X monsters have a nasty tendency to "Cast like an nth level wizard" which has the effect of making them wizards with prosthetic foreheads, whereas 4e is missing the monsters that behave like traps more than sentient beasts like the Lurker and Cloaker.

I therefore give the 4e Monster Manuals all a vast edge over anything in previous editions in inspiring for what to do when the monster meets the PCs. I've been known to look at a monster stat block, almost cackle, and want to see what the PCs will do when facing that. If that isn't inspiring, what is?





Then there's the backstory. Two things are important here for inspiring stories. Where a monster is, and what its motivation is (whether or not the motivation relates directly to the PCs). Both Monstrous Manual and Monster vault entries are written to a fairly obvious structure; the Monstrous Manual is written with a section providing a basic overview then a school-textbook like account of Combat, of the Society, and of the Ecology. The Monster Vault on the other hand is written to inspire. It provides a couple of paragraphs of basic background, then normally three headed sections for each monster (standard PC races normally get two, and certain popular monsters get four). So for example Giants get "A Shattered Legacy", "Born from Furor" and "Titanic Leaders", kobolds get "Trap-Filled Warrens", "Creature Keepers", "Devious Thieves and Cunning Killers", and "Dragon Worshippers" whereas Hydras get "Born of Primordial Blood", "Predatory Water Dwellers" and "Deadly Pets". And always at least one of the sections deals with where you are likely to find the monsters and at least one deals with motivations.


To illustrate, here's the 2e Black Dragon entry. 4e on the other hand provides motivations and locations in the text for all the monsters. And I believe that most people will find the following text excerpted from Monster Vault more inspiring than the 2e Monstrous Manual.

Even among chromatic dragons, few share the cruelty of blacks. A black dragon does not hunt out of a need to survive or to protect its territory. Instead a black dragon chases and tortures prey for the pleasure it gains from inspiring fear and causing pain. Black dragons are also among the most cowardly and cautious chromatic dragons. A black dragon waits in ambush or attacks from concealment, When a black dragon retreats, victims of its ambush sometimes mistake its departure for a genuine withdrawl, not realising until too late that the black is merely preparing for another assault.

[Four colours of dragon snipped]

Driven by Greed and Ego: The secret to understanding chromatic dragons is comprehending their worldview. One trait unites and informs their psychology: the belief that they are superior beings. Dragons consider themselves more powerful, intelligent, important, and worthy of being dominators than any other mortal creature. Chromatic dragons are born with this sense of superiority, and it is a cornerstone of their personalities and worldviews. Trying to humble any dragon is like trying to convince the wind to stop blowing. To chromatic dragons, humanoids are animals, fit to serve as prey or beasts of burden, unworthy of respect or acknowledgment.

If one characteristic other than arrogance defines chromatic dragons, it’s greed. Dragon hoards are the stuff of legend—enormous piles of gold, gleaming gems, and magic items, enough wealth to buy a kingdom. And yet dragons have no interest in commerce, despite the value of their hoards. They amass wealth for no other reason than to have it. A chromatic dragon’s desire to create a hoard is a psychological need, or, arguably, a biological imperative. The source of this desire is a mystery, but it probably lies somewhere in a dragon’s enjoyment of possessing what others lack.

Dangerous lairs: One things dragons and humanoids share is the desire to find permanent shelter. Humanoids want a place that offers comfort and a little security. A dragon, with its innate toughess, poor tactile senses, and tolerance for server conditions, instead chooses a home that is defensible, has multiple ways to enter and leave, and that provides the utmost security for its hoard.
Chronatuc dragons rarely construct lairs and instead find naturally occurring locations that can accommodate them
...
A chromatic dragon doesn't rely only on the natural defenses of its lair. A dragon employs magical guardians, traps and subservient humanoids to protect its treasure. A dragon that lacks such resources instead makes sure to place its lair in such a dangerous and remote location that none but the most audacious mortals could ever reach it. A white dragon might lair in a cave within a massive icicle on a frozen mountainside. A black dragon could hide wealth deep underwater in the hull of a sunken ship.
​

Where does an adult dragon sleep? Wherever it likes! And tell me that the very idea of a dragon making its lair in the hull of a sunken ship isn't inherently more inspiring than one that revels in the gloomy depths of swamps and bogs.

I picked the Black Dragon because it was a statblock I knew I could find online. There are more.

The Monster Vault doppelganger has the section headings "Sowers of Paranoia:", "Dedicated Impersonators:" (including the lovely note "Some doppelgangers find this effort stressful and revert to their natural forms when they believe that no one is looking. Still, their ability to hold a form over time allows doppelgangers to live among other races, developing relationships with neighbors and becoming a part of the community without raising suspicion.") and "Wielders of Many Powers:" whereas the 2e Doppelganger has information on how they were created "in the distant past", has more mechanical detail, and has the most anti-inspiring text I think I've seen. "All dopplegangers belong to a single tribe. Although this is rare, groups of dopplegangers can be found anywhere at any time, and in unexpected locations." (Well, that first sentence is anti-inspiring. The second is just vapid).

Otyughs also make my point. Just looking at the combat fluff, 2e says "Otyughs lurk under piles of offal with only their eyes exposed. They usually attack if they feel threatened, or if they are hungry and there is fresh meat nearby. They attack with their two ridged tentacles, which either smash an opponent or grapple it. [Half a dozen lines of early grab rules snipped]" 4e on the other hand is far more evocative "Ambush Hunters: An otyugh is a natural ambusher. Its massive bulk and ungainly, three-legged form rule out speed-based attacks, but the rest of its body reeks of predatory ability. The beast sinks into its wallow. Its center tentacle, which is outfitted with two eyes and nostrils, barely breaches the pit’s surface as it watches a creature approach. Then it silently draws back and awaits the perfect moment to strike. With a great splash, an otyugh’s other two tentacles, well muscled and equipped with claws, whip out to smash into startled prey. Even the creature’s scent aids it in battle, as disoriented and sickened foes stumble around trying to settle their bellies long enough to unsheathe their weapons."

So the 4e Monster Vault has more fluff, fluff that is almost pure hook and reason to use these monsters rather than being written textbook style and being about what the monsters eat and how they raise their kids.

So tell me, in what way is the 2e Monstrous Manual more inspiring than Monster Vault?

 

[Neonchameleon]

It's sort of like they gave me "campaign arc," when what I wanted was "adventure ideas," y'know?

Possibly for a plague demon. But in what way is a black dragon hiding its treasure in the ruins of a sunken ship not an excellent adventure idea?

What would you say the 2e equivalent is? Give me an example of what you actually like from the 2e MM rather than just saying "That won't cut it".

 

[GreyICE]

For me personally, that MV fluff is kinda weak. I was kind of lost in the first six words there. It doesn't have a bad little adventure seed in there, but it's kind of over-the-top and overwrought. The 2e black dragon's suggestion of hating people and tainting water and prefering to wait in ambush are all things about the creature you can use to build with the creature. For the plague demons, the similar adventure hook is their diseased touch. Which can be good. But if I use plague demons, I've gotta accept a whole dead universe and the ability to cross from it to this one and some sort of exarch stirring in the elemental chaos? Man, all I have to do is planning for this one night, I don't want a whole 30-level campaign arc, I just want a dungeon, some monsters, some NPC's, some adventure hooks, and some support for the three pillars.

It's sort of like they gave me "campaign arc," when what I wanted was "adventure ideas," y'know?

Well they are kind of geared to a long-running campaign, with one of their primary threats being a plague track that would never affect adventurers over the short term (disease rolls happen after every extended rest, so stage 3 and the threat of death can be weeks off). So you're right, they're completely inappropriate for that. You'd want something like a bloodfire ooze:

When an evil ritual mixes sacrificial blood with the ichor of a
demon, the end result is often the birth of a slithering, spitting
horror known as a bloodfire ooze.

Bloodfire oozes are created through horrid rituals and
have no place in the natural world. Fanatical priests
loyal to Orcus or one of the other demon princes are
most often associated with creating the oozes for their
own dark purposes.
...
Tormented Faces: The amorphous blood fire ooze
looks like a slithering mass of seething, boiling blood,
which reeks of sulfur. It occasionally extrudes pseudopods
and manifests faces twisted in torment. These
faces are personifications of the creature's demonic
essence, often resembling those whose blood was sacrificed
to create the bloodfire ooze. The faces are quickly
absorbed into the creature's form, but not before they
disgorge clouds of poisonous sulfuric gas.

Also that 2 E link reminded me of everything I hate about old stat blocks:

Juvenile: darkness three times a day in a 10' radius per age category of the dragon. Adult: corrupt water once a day. For every age category a dragon attains, it can stagnate 10 cubic feet of water, making it become still, foul, inert, and unable to support animal life. When this ability is used against potions and elixirs, they become useless if they roll a 15 or better on 1d20. Old: plant growth once a day. Venerable: summon insects once a day. Great wyrm: charm reptiles three times a day. This operates as a charm mammals spell, but is applicable only to reptiles.

God, I used to be able to tolerate this stuff (even if it annoyed me). How?

 

[JeffB]

Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale

Starts out by describing the Nentir Vale (after the obligatory "how to use a stat block" section that so many monster manuals have forgotten about). The design was PERFECT for inserting monsters into your campaign. I'll just grab a short exerpt to demonstrate:

Alien entities from a dead universe, plague demons have the
same chaotic and destructive nature as demons from the
Abyss deep within the Elemental Chaos. Unleashed upon the
natural world, they are a virulent irifection that spreads like
wildfire through a parched forest.

A ritual undertaken in ancient times released the
exarchs of the demon lord of a dead universe, a universe
where the demon lord succeeded in conquering
its Abyss but also inadvertently destroyed the planes
around it. Brought to the natural world, these exarchs
planned to establish the Abyssal plague, unleash hordes
of plague demons, and open the way for their demon
lord to step into this existence.

Heroes of the age stepped forward to disrupt the
ritual, and the threat of the plague demons seemed
to have been dealt with. Recently, however, one of the
exarchs escaped from its ancient prison, and the demon
lord found a host in the natural world.
Now the Abyssal plague has ignited a fever that
burns throughout the land. Plague demons of various
forms have begun to appear, threatening civilized
settlements across the Nentir Vale. The very touch of a
plague demon can pass along a debilitating disease that
can lead to death or even transformation in rare cases.
The alien disease is capable of turning humans and
other natural creatures into plague demons.

For my tastes that goes too far in assuming what has occurred in my setting, history wise. All fine and good for a campaign specific monster book (which this is from, apparently), but for a generic core "MM", no thanks.

One of the best damned things about 4E was the light framework when it came to the assumed "world of D&D". Much of the Lore from 30 years of AD&D was not regurgitated and recycled for 4E. While not as free wheeling and loose as OD&D, it still was not as rigid as 3E, 2E, and latter day 1E. For me that was refreshing and reminded me of the LBB days of my youth... despite the fact I sill love the Great Wheel and a host of other lore related things that have since become "core" to the D&D Brand that were once setting specific.

The yellow fluff text is just more of the same assumptions, albeit new and not 30 years worth of regurgitation. This is the same kind of stuff that bugged me about NEXT's Minotaur article. Bottom line, I don't want WOTC's story, cos 9 times out of 10 I do not like it, just like their adventures. If I want those kind of story details, I'll get it in a Campaign Setting book, like FR, GH, DS, Eberron, etc. In a core/generic Monster Manual type product, I'll take the 2.0/3.0 dry "non invasive" fluff text any day of the week.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I just compared the Goblin in the AD&D 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium to the one in the 4e monsters manual. They have their pro's and con's, but I must say that I liked the AD&D goblin better.

Partially because all the information is presented on a single page instead of the 4e version which is spread over 6 pages of goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears. The other part is how the entry on the 2e goblin talks mostly about how to incorporate into into a campaign, not in an encounter. It talks about how many there will be, organization, non-combatants (females and children), slaves (shackled) and what they eat - mostly everything, probably including the slaves as it does mention humans.

What the 4e editon does well is create interesting mobs to throw into an encounter that will be and interesting fight, but it feels more like a board game where the encounter should be of an appropriate challenge.

I ran some random 4e stuff a good while back and it was mostly encounters. Fun ones with just about the right amount of challenge, but there was no continuity to it. I didn't put much thought into it and just pulled monsters that made the correct amount of xp according to the party level. I just skimmed the fluff text and mostly looked at the stats.

Looking at the 2e variant, I did the exact opposite - I looked at the fluff text and skimmed the stats. The Habitat/Society section was the part that got my attention. There is actual crunch for a complete society of goblins something which is completely lacking from the 4e entry. At the same time, the 2e entry has an entry for "No. Appearing" and it just says 4-24 and really doesn't mention why you would meet them and what they are doing and what typical reactions and so on. Might be a tall order for a 1-page entry.

Yeah, and I do mislike the whole "goblin family" (gobling, hobgoblin, bugbear) entry they did in 4e. I much prefer the seperate entries of 2e with completely different behaviour patterns and society.

A little side note - I think the 2e combat cruch is AWFUL and the 4e crunch fun, the only positive thing to it is that is simple and combat is fast. Btw, I checked the Black Dragon entry in the monsters manual (the first one for 4e) and the entry there is nothing like the Monster Vault entry. It's as barren and bad as mentioned earlier. It's what I remembered as well, and probably what most people who stopped playing 4e thinks of the Monster manuals. Maybe the problem with 4e is that the first products produced where crap compared to the later ones? It really does feel like it.

Please don't pick apart my post, was really tired writing it and just wanted to give some input.

 

[Jester David]

I love the two newest monster books, and Monster Vault is truly excellent but the information it provides can be scattered and unfocused: it's whatever the author thought was important in the order they thought was important.

As such, the 2e Monstrous Manual sets the bar. Lots of flavour and consistent entries. That's your benchmark.

 

[GreyICE]

For my tastes that goes too far in assuming what has occurred in my setting, history wise. All fine and good for a campaign specific monster book (which this is from, apparently), but for a generic core "MM", no thanks.

One of the best damned things about 4E was the light framework when it came to the assumed "world of D&D". Much of the Lore from 30 years of AD&D was not regurgitated and recycled for 4E. While not as free wheeling and loose as OD&D, it still was not as rigid as 3E, 2E, and latter day 1E. For me that was refreshing and reminded me of the LBB days of my youth... despite the fact I sill love the Great Wheel and a host of other lore related things that have since become "core" to the D&D Brand that were once setting specific.

The yellow fluff text is just more of the same assumptions, albeit new and not 30 years worth of regurgitation. This is the same kind of stuff that bugged me about NEXT's Minotaur article. Bottom line, I don't want WOTC's story, cos 9 times out of 10 I do not like it, just like their adventures. If I want those kind of story details, I'll get it in a Campaign Setting book, like FR, GH, DS, Eberron, etc. In a core/generic Monster Manual type product, I'll take the 2.0/3.0 dry "non invasive" fluff text any day of the week.

To me, it's amazing inspiration. Plague demons are from a dead plane they devoured. They were brought into this world with ritual. Heroes managed to seal them, but now they're back.

Who are the heroes? Why were they brought here in the first place? Did someone get something out of bringing them back?

These are all answers that I, the DM can provide.

It gives me inspiration. They become a part of my campaign world. Do I need to care about their fluff? Nah. It inspires me. It inspires me to make a campaign world.

What does the entry for a black dragon from 2E do? It talks about the rewards in the lair. Platinum and Gold pieces, yay.

2E monster manual was aimed at players
4E monster vault was aimed at DMs


P.S. MM1/2/3 in 4E were miserable. Okay, MM3 was passable, but the rest were terrible. Just ignore them.