D&D 4E Hi and D&D 4e

[Pittedpanda]

Hello EN World,

I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. Figured I'd do an Intro.

I'm 23, and read D&D rules (and even played a bit) since I was ~12. The most tabletop gaming I've played consistently is a year of 3.5 and a a half year of 40k. I'm currently playing 40k and a Kill-Teams like rule-set I've made myself (~ 5 - 10 man skirmish).

Anyways, introductions aside, I am dying to game with my little brother when I return home for the next two months. I started thinking of playing Descent 2e and my want for the perfect co-op dungeon crawler. I ended up deciding on D&D 4E with us both playing a PC and co-GMing. I'll use premade adventures (lair assaults or D&D encounters) so I'm not too worried about not having a dedicated DM. I figure we can read the story text aloud together, talk about it (ie: RP), and then play out the combat with minis and a Chessex Vinyl game-mat.

Sounds like a good idea? I might house-rule that we have 1/2 healing surges, all monsters deal max damage and half 1/2 health, and play with a 3 minute timer. Just to keep things moving.

I suppose i should subscibe to DDI for the character builder...

(PS: I'm looking for a "Rise of the Runelords 4e Conversion"; the pathfinder book looks like such an adventure!".

 

[Quickleaf]

Have you checked out the D&D boardgames like Wrath of Ashardalon? Those provide a solid co-op dungeon crawling experience, feel like 4e, and might be a good entry point without that intimidating role-playing stuff.

 

[Obryn]

Hi, and welcome to the boards!

I think your idea sounds like it could be a lot of fun. Is this your first foray into 4e? I generally recommend trying stuff RAW to figure out the ins & outs before houseruling.

With that said, it won't hurt anything to try it like you're suggesting. Let us know how it works out.

-O

 

[Ferghis]

I would also recommend one of the D&D boardgames for your purposes (can't xp Quickleaf). That's not to say that what you propose won't work, it just seems like more work for a similar amount of fun.

 

[Pittedpanda]

Have you checked out the D&D boardgames like Wrath of Ashardalon? Those provide a solid co-op dungeon crawling experience, feel like 4e, and might be a good entry point without that intimidating role-playing stuff.

I would also recommend one of the D&D boardgames for your purposes (can't xp Quickleaf). That's not to say that what you propose won't work, it just seems like more work for a similar amount of fun.

Yeah, I owned, played, and quickly sold Castle Raven-loft Boardgame. I was amazing at the poor rules quality. For example: leveling up when you roll a natural 20 (only 2 levels), no pacing (pit trap and monsters at every move), totally based on luck (too simple to have tactical decisions), and poor use of theme (a non-random dungeon with set monsters in each room would have been much better).

That being said, I appreciate the recommendation as I also thought it would be a good fit. I actually got it a second time through a math-trade, with the intent to use the components for my co-op 4e dreams, but was offered a good bit of cash for it so I just sold it before being able to really test that idea out.

D&D 4e might be a bit more work, but by looking at the D&D encounters pdf I got, I'm not too worried.

Hi, and welcome to the boards!

I think your idea sounds like it could be a lot of fun. Is this your first foray into 4e? I generally recommend trying stuff RAW to figure out the ins & outs before houseruling.

With that said, it won't hurt anything to try it like you're suggesting. Let us know how it works out.

-O

I have actually owned the essentials "Rules Compendium" for some time and read it back to back more than once. However, I was never able to convince my group to play. I played the first level "Dungeon Delve" with my GF and a good friend but it was my GFs first RPG xp, and my bud was super skeptical of 4e, so it wasn't all that fun.

I gave it some more thought, and I really like all the rules except I can't understand the Healing Surges per **DAY** bit. I could get Healing Surges per Level perhaps, as some characters get >10, but I just don't see how the characters are supposed to feel threatened when they have so many ways to heal between encounters...

 

[Uller]

I play with my son in a similar manner. We started with the Red Box and have played a few published adventures (Reavers of Harkenwold and Thunderspire Labyrinth).

Your idea is a good one for some introductory D&D. However, we have found 4e to bog down because combats last longer than the attention span of a typical pre-teen or early teen kid. PCs have too many options, too many interrupts and reactions, etc. The rules are fantastic for exciting, grid based tactical fights.

My suggestion:

Start with standard 4e rules (we like Red Box and Essentials). Make your PCs with as few feats, traits, magic items, etc that produce conditional bonuses (like one that gives +x damage when you use a cold based spell against a target you just hit with a fire based spell...) Go with ones that just give a straight bonus like +1 to all Ref, Def, Fort that you can just note on your character sheet and forget.

Think about doing away with action points to start....again, deciding whether or not to use them slows you down.

Once you get familiar with how the game plays, consider other changes. A very popular one is to cut monster HP in half. I go even further and cut it by two-thirds. If I want specific monsters to be tougher than average I give them +2 hp per level. I cut healing surges by the same (round up) so PCs typically have 3, 4 or 5 per day....so when you get knocked down to 0 hp in a fight, it really hurts because by the time you use your surges to get back to max, you are pretty much out for the day.

But, like I said, play it Rules as Written first. Then mod to suit you and your brother.

 

[Obryn]

I gave it some more thought, and I really like all the rules except I can't understand the Healing Surges per **DAY** bit. I could get Healing Surges per Level perhaps, as some characters get >10, but I just don't see how the characters are supposed to feel threatened when they have so many ways to heal between encounters...

Well, you can look at it as a hard cap on daily healing. Stuff that heals without using Surges is very rare. Yes, they can be used between encounters, but so can spells and wands, eh? The actual way it works in play is fairly different from how it reads on paper. When reading it, it's easy to conclude, "Wow, look at all this free healing!" When playing it, it's more like, "Um, once I'm out of these I can't get healed much at all? Not even with spells?"

The way 4e tends to work is that you start each encounter fairly near to full capability (minus whatever Dailies you've used) but attrition over the course of the day can make things get scary. Also, within each encounter, there's only so many ways to get access to those surges, so there's still tension.

But! Feel free to experiment. I hope it goes very well and you have a great time!

-O

 

[Ferghis]

I gave it some more thought, and I really like all the rules except I can't understand the Healing Surges per **DAY** bit. I could get Healing Surges per Level perhaps, as some characters get >10, but I just don't see how the characters are supposed to feel threatened when they have so many ways to heal between encounters...

As Obryn said, in play, the amount of healing you get from the surges is pretty good. After all, each surge is a quarter of your hit points, and if you have a leader in the party, you can add some to that.

Surges, action points, and daily powers are designed to be the resources that a player has to administer during an adventuring "chapter." Thanks to the surge rule element, PCs can begin most encounters at or near full HP, but allow encounters to cause attrition nonetheless. I always thought it was a pretty ingenious idea, and I'm a bit sad that Next is moving away from it. Back to the point: if you give characters too many surges, losing a few of them becomes a trivial issue.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I owned, played, and quickly sold Castle Raven-loft Boardgame. I was amazing at the poor rules quality. For example: leveling up when you roll a natural 20 (only 2 levels), no pacing (pit trap and monsters at every move), totally based on luck (too simple to have tactical decisions), and poor use of theme (a non-random dungeon with set monsters in each room would have been much better).

That being said, I appreciate the recommendation as I also thought it would be a good fit. I actually got it a second time through a math-trade, with the intent to use the components for my co-op 4e dreams, but was offered a good bit of cash for it so I just sold it before being able to really test that idea out.

D&D 4e might be a bit more work, but by looking at the D&D encounters pdf I got, I'm not too worried.



I have actually owned the essentials "Rules Compendium" for some time and read it back to back more than once. However, I was never able to convince my group to play. I played the first level "Dungeon Delve" with my GF and a good friend but it was my GFs first RPG xp, and my bud was super skeptical of 4e, so it wasn't all that fun.

I gave it some more thought, and I really like all the rules except I can't understand the Healing Surges per **DAY** bit. I could get Healing Surges per Level perhaps, as some characters get >10, but I just don't see how the characters are supposed to feel threatened when they have so many ways to heal between encounters...

HS SEEM a bit high without playing, but they actually work pretty well. The overall mode of play and feel is adventure movie cinematic, so the idea is that the PCs are falling down and getting up, often. Its actually pretty easy to go through HS. Remember too that non-combat situations are often just set up as "oops you messed up, lose a surge" and things like diseases (can also be used for slow acting poisons and curses) will often hit your surge total as well.

In other words feel free to whittle away at the PC's surges at every turn. I find I can easily drive a party to the edge of total surge exhaustion in a day. Their days just read a lot like an Indiana Jones adventure...

 

[Uller]

Their days just read a lot like an Indiana Jones adventure...

Yes. Despite all the hit point/healing surge flame wars that go on around here, I've always thought Temple of Doom is the iconic D&D 4e adventure. How many times is Indy or Short Round reduced to near or below 0 hp only to be back up swinging in the next encounter....

I realize that isn't everyone's bag when it comes to RPGs. Some want a game where if you get knocked down, you're down for a while. 4e is not designed to be that game.