What's The Best Monster Book?

[Neonchameleon]

At the risk of playing the grognard card, I'd have to say that original Fiend Folio is the book which most fired up my imagination; all of that wonderfully dark art by Russ Nicholson, and the whole enterprise bursting with the creativity of every writer in the UK ready to make their mark. Warlock of Firetop Mountain followed soon after, and 2000 AD was in its heyday; must have been something in the water. Or the Channel, rather.

That, and it had a flying vampire head trailing her guts below her.

M.

Oh, I have no doubt that it fired your imagination - and from that perspective (which is possibly the most important) was a huge success. And I don't mean to denigrate that. Also the Fiend Folio is a very nice book (there's a reason I have a copy) and really stood out from the other 1e monster books.

But I really think that a lot of the liking for older monster books is rose tinted spectacles. The 2e Monstrous Manual was (contrary to Steely Dan's assertions) massively better than the 1e Monster Manual and, as such, stood out like a diamond in the rough. It was almost a revelation. Monster Vault, as I believe several of us have demonstrated, has more and better fluff than the 2e Monstrous Manual. But while the Monstrous Manual left the 1e Monster Manual in the dust, Monster Vault is only a bit better than the Monstrous Manual - and it's a lot harder to inspire a 33 year old adult than the same person as a 13 year old kid.

As far as monster books being revalations go, the only one in the same league as the 2e Monstrous Manual (or even the 1e Fiend Folio) that I'm aware of is the 4e Monster Manual 1. And it was a revelation by D&D standards not because the fluff was inspiring, but because the statblocks were. @pmerton thinks that the fluff was good - and honestly I don't find it bad. But it's the representations where the rubber meets the road (i.e. in play) that leave any previous offerings in the dust or at least promise to. The 4e MM1 isn't bedside reading in the way the Monstrous Manual is - but it's incredibly inspiring to most people with a tactically oriented mind in my opinion and many kinaesthetic learners - this dichotomy is why it is so controversial. (I happen to fit both 'kinaesthetic learner' and 'tactician'). 4e Monster Vault offers both superb bedside reading fluff and statblocks that are what the MM1 promises but with more polish and that almost invariably deliver, but the bedside reading isn't the revalation the 2e Monstrous Manual was and the statblocks are mostly polished versions of the 4e Monster Manual 1.

 

[darjr]

I agree that the 4e MM1 had statblocks that were a revelation and very inspiring and contained a kind of wonderful flavor/fluff when I originally looked at, but then I was invested in the 4e ruleset. Now when I look at it there isn't quite the same feeling. Mostly I just ignore the stat block. I imagine that lack of impact of the stat block is the same for folks who were never invested in 4e.

 

[Steely_Dan]

The 2e Monstrous Manual was (contrary to Steely Dan's assertions) massively better than the 1e Monster Manual and

It's an opinion, please don't be rude, and I still disagree with your opinion (about pretty much everything, always).

The 2nd Ed Monstrous Manual is a great book, though.

 

[gdmcbride]

We are a long way into this discussion without mentioning the Malleus Monstrorum for Call of Cthulhu, a simply epic monster book. Yes, it is focused on mythos monsters but it is still very adaptable for fantasy RPGs of every stripe. What I love about that book, is the handouts. Almost every monster is depicted in some historical relic, art piece, or so forth. Each monster is a plot hook. Great work.

You can read a 16 page publisher generated excerpt here. You can probably skip to the last few pages to really get a feel for the book.

I understand that there is a second edition in German that has not yet been translated into English. Criminal, my friends. Criminal.

Gary McBride

 

[Steely_Dan]

We are a long way into this discussion without mentioning the Malleus Monstrorum for Call of Cthulhu

I do like the size comparison of monsters in CoC.

 

[pemerton]

The 2e Monstrous Manual was (contrary to Steely Dan's assertions) massively better than the 1e Monster Manual and, as such, stood out like a diamond in the rough. It was almost a revelation. Monster Vault, as I believe several of us have demonstrated, has more and better fluff than the 2e Monstrous Manual. But while the Monstrous Manual left the 1e Monster Manual in the dust, Monster Vault is only a bit better than the Monstrous Manual

Based on the 2nd ed MM entries that I and others have linked to in this thread, I think this is quite a generous assessment of the Monstrous Manual.

As far as monster books being revalations go, the only one in the same league as the 2e Monstrous Manual (or even the 1e Fiend Folio) that I'm aware of is the 4e Monster Manual 1. And it was a revelation by D&D standards not because the fluff was inspiring, but because the statblocks were. @pmerton thinks that the fluff was good - and honestly I don't find it bad. But it's the representations where the rubber meets the road (i.e. in play) that leave any previous offerings in the dust or at least promise to. The 4e MM1 isn't bedside reading in the way the Monstrous Manual is - but it's incredibly inspiring to most people with a tactically oriented mind in my opinion and many kinaesthetic learners - this dichotomy is why it is so controversial.

I agree that the 4e MM was a revelation - in play, but also in pre-reading, because of the play that it promised.

I do read 4e monster books as bedtime reading, but not because they're stories - but because of the play implict in them.

In contrast to pre-4e monster books, I found Rolemaster's Creatures & Treasures very good, mostly because it showed a very clear alternative to the D&D norm: concise stat blocks, dozens of monsters on a page, and also a strong integration of monster and PC-building rules: C&T uses Rolemaster's spell list systems to express the supernatural abilities of monsters, which does have the "need multiple books" headache but, for a strongly simulationist system, helps reinforce the sense of the spell lists as expressing the underlying workings of magic in that world.

I agree that the 4e MM1 had statblocks that were a revelation and very inspiring and contained a kind of wonderful flavor/fluff when I originally looked at, but then I was invested in the 4e ruleset. Now when I look at it there isn't quite the same feeling. Mostly I just ignore the stat block. I imagine that lack of impact of the stat block is the same for folks who were never invested in 4e.

That makes sense. An appreciation for the stat blocks is certainly a key part of reading the 4e MM. They're not an appendix to the monster descriptions - they express the monsters as game elements.

 

[griffonwing]

I would have to go with the new Hacklopedia of Beasts. Not just because I am a fan of the new system (which is a perfect blend of several different mechanics used in other systems, rebuilt to work seamlessly) but also because of the innovation of the book layout.

You have iconic monsters. The pig-faced Orc, Cyclops, Ogres, the dog-faced Kobolds (not dragonkin), the canine Gnoles, Troglodytes and Trolls. You also have the unique and bizarre like the Tarantubat, a fist-sized spider with bat-webbing between the first 3 pairs of legs, Giant Ticks, Flesh-Eating Slime, Giant Goat, and Swamp Death (similar to a Shambling Mound).

Then you have the extraneous information regarding these beasts.
GENERAL INFORMATION
1) Activity Cycle (diurnal, nocturnal, always active, etc)
2) No. Appearing (3-5, 1-20, or even 1, 2-10 (band), 11-20 (war band) depending on how you want the combat)
3) % Chance in Lair (infrequent, Frequent, Sporadic, etc)
4) Alignment (duh)
5) Vision Type (n/a, standard, low light, undead sight, etc)
6) Awareness/Senses (standard, 10% Listening/Observation, etc)
7) Habitat (Caves, Plains, Open Grasslands, Tombs or Dungeons, etc)
8) Diet (Omnivorous, Carnivorous, Sanguivorous, etc)
9) Organization (Solitary to Tribal, Individual-Family-Clan, etc)
10) Climate/Terrain (Any, Tropical, Termperate Wilderness, etc)

YIELD
1) Medicinal (nil, elephant brains are said to cure senility, ettin kidneys are thought to cure allergies) Do they? Who knows. This is a field guide, not a fact book)
2) Spell Components (ground ghoul bone can be used to offset the listed spell components for example)
3) Hide/Trophy (Gorgon head is a valuable trophy-up to 250 sp)
4) Treasure (hag homes are replete with potions (guessing, perhaps, 2d10 random potions?), hapries are fond of jewelry and object d'art (random rolls for these as well)
5) Edible (harpy-yes, medusa-toxic (as per snake bite), etc)
6) Other (all spider types-webbing has many uses, elephant-tusks are a source of ivory)
7) Experient Point Value

Also, you are given Sign/Tracks for all creatures, the range/locations on Tellene of the majority of the creatures, Size comparison vs a 6ft Human. You have the Combat/Tactics write up, their Habitat/Society section, and every monster entry starts out with a first-hand account by 1 of six noted professionals: Greytar the sage; El Ravager the fighter; Larzon Bayz, the bounty hunter; Dorran Randril, a master herbologist; Helena Vitira, cleric of the Eternal Lantern; and Dealaan Daarmae, a canny Reanaarian master thief. Each account is written in their own style of speech, be it unlearned, dignified, or pompous (using large words).

Last, but not least, are the extra touches you find in the book, along with masterful miscellaneous rules. One that stands out are the Dog Pack Mauling rules. There is a 4-page account by Larzon entitles The Beast in the Rocks, recounting his confrontation with an Owlbeast lair, which would be the basis of a great one-off or side adventure.

Even if you never play HackMaster, the details in this book would be very beneficial for any GM. Simply use the HoB fluff and insert your systems combat information (HP, saves, attack/def, etc).

 

[Neonchameleon]

I would have to go with the new Hacklopedia of Beasts. Not just because I am a fan of the new system (which is a perfect blend of several different mechanics used in other systems, rebuilt to work seamlessly) but also because of the innovation of the book layout.

You have iconic monsters. The pig-faced Orc, Cyclops, Ogres, the dog-faced Kobolds (not dragonkin), the canine Gnoles, Troglodytes and Trolls. You also have the unique and bizarre like the Tarantubat, a fist-sized spider with bat-webbing between the first 3 pairs of legs, Giant Ticks, Flesh-Eating Slime, Giant Goat, and Swamp Death (similar to a Shambling Mound).

Then you have the extraneous information regarding these beasts.
GENERAL INFORMATION
1) Activity Cycle (diurnal, nocturnal, always active, etc)
2) No. Appearing (3-5, 1-20, or even 1, 2-10 (band), 11-20 (war band) depending on how you want the combat)
3) % Chance in Lair (infrequent, Frequent, Sporadic, etc)
4) Alignment (duh)
5) Vision Type (n/a, standard, low light, undead sight, etc)
6) Awareness/Senses (standard, 10% Listening/Observation, etc)
7) Habitat (Caves, Plains, Open Grasslands, Tombs or Dungeons, etc)
8) Diet (Omnivorous, Carnivorous, Sanguivorous, etc)
9) Organization (Solitary to Tribal, Individual-Family-Clan, etc)
10) Climate/Terrain (Any, Tropical, Termperate Wilderness, etc)

YIELD
1) Medicinal (nil, elephant brains are said to cure senility, ettin kidneys are thought to cure allergies) Do they? Who knows. This is a field guide, not a fact book)
2) Spell Components (ground ghoul bone can be used to offset the listed spell components for example)
3) Hide/Trophy (Gorgon head is a valuable trophy-up to 250 sp)
4) Treasure (hag homes are replete with potions (guessing, perhaps, 2d10 random potions?), hapries are fond of jewelry and object d'art (random rolls for these as well)
5) Edible (harpy-yes, medusa-toxic (as per snake bite), etc)
6) Other (all spider types-webbing has many uses, elephant-tusks are a source of ivory)
7) Experient Point Value

Also, you are given Sign/Tracks for all creatures, the range/locations on Tellene of the majority of the creatures, Size comparison vs a 6ft Human. You have the Combat/Tactics write up, their Habitat/Society section, and every monster entry starts out with a first-hand account by 1 of six noted professionals: Greytar the sage; El Ravager the fighter; Larzon Bayz, the bounty hunter; Dorran Randril, a master herbologist; Helena Vitira, cleric of the Eternal Lantern; and Dealaan Daarmae, a canny Reanaarian master thief. Each account is written in their own style of speech, be it unlearned, dignified, or pompous (using large words).

Last, but not least, are the extra touches you find in the book, along with masterful miscellaneous rules. One that stands out are the Dog Pack Mauling rules. There is a 4-page account by Larzon entitles The Beast in the Rocks, recounting his confrontation with an Owlbeast lair, which would be the basis of a great one-off or side adventure.

Even if you never play HackMaster, the details in this book would be very beneficial for any GM. Simply use the HoB fluff and insert your systems combat information (HP, saves, attack/def, etc).

And this brings me onto a pet rant.

The lair probabilities are all very well for wild animals - but if we're dealing with humans, orcs, goblins, and the like, they are useless if not worse. I want to find out what that particular society is doing - generic humans do not all have the same %lair chance. And Number Appearing: "Dictated by Owner" is about right - this is wasted space. And I don't need seven pages of text on owlbears - at that point I start thinking the designers are paid by the word and have decided to pad everything out. Not that I dislike everything about the Hacklopaedia - the size comparison, the weight, and for a setting-specific monster, the map are all very good.

And that's a lot of fluff. Four pages for dogs - with the Dog Pack Mauling Rules copied and pasted below.

Dog Pack Mauling Rules:
Any attack by a dog that exceeds the defender’s roll by
5 or more indicates that the dog has not only injured its
victim for standard damage, but that it also grabbed one
of the defender’s limbs. Roll randomly to determine
which arm or leg the dog latched onto. However, the following
caveat applies: if the shield arm is indicated, reroll
the result. A second consecutive result of this limb
indicates that the shield arm has indeed been grabbed
and it is, along with and defensive benefits provided by
the shield, useless until freed.
Once having grabbed on to an opponent, the canine
will pull and tug inflicting d4p damage every 10 seconds
(no Defense roll allowed nor Attack roll required though
armor DR applies). Further, the defender suffers a 2-
point penalty to all rolls and cannot use the ensnared
limb for any action other than spending 5 seconds attempting
to free it of the canine’s hold (requiring a Feat
of Strength vs. d20p+8). If a leg has been grabbed, the
victim cannot move at more than a crawling pace while
he drags the dog behind him. If the dog’s jaws hold a
weapon arm, attack is impossible and any defensive
bonuses gained from weapon skill are forfeited. (Note
though that the weapon is rarely dropped – a successful
Feat of Strength vs. d20p+3 retains control of any held
weapon). A dog that has grabbed a character may also be
compelled to loosen its grip via a successful knock-back or
by inflicting sufficient damage to cause a Threshold of
Pain check.
A single dog provides little more than a nuisance, particularly
to armored characters, either slowing down an
intruder (when the leg is grabbed) or hindering his attacks
or defense (an arm grab). Far more frightening,
however, is when a pack of dogs works in concert to pull
down a victim. A second dog that successfully grabs the
same defender saddles the victim with a 6-point penalty
to all rolls and two limbs are now incapacitated. Thereafter,
any successful attack by an additional dog will
knock Small creatures prone, an attack of 5 or more in excess
of that required to hit will knock a Medium creature
prone and 10 or more will knock a Large creature prone.
Even if its quarry is not knocked prone, a successful attack
by a third dog will automatically grab hold. When
held by three dogs, an attack by a fourth reduces the defender’s
effective size by one category if a fourth dog attacks,
and so on.
Any prey knocked prone will be viciously mauled by all
nearby dogs, who bite with bonuses of +2 to Speed and
+6 to Attack, although it is 50% likely that each limb will
be freed as the dogs will be more concerned with mauling
than tugging.
​

Gurgle. By my count that literally took fifty lines of almost solid text (I counted) in the Hacklopaedia for a complex effect that takes several times to read through. This isn't a case of "masterful miscellaneous rules" - by the standard of the 4e monster manuals calling them "amateurish miscallaneous rules" would be flattering.

For comparison, taken from the Dire Wolf statblock in MV:

Traits
Pack Harrier
The wolf has combat advantage against any enemy that is adjacent to two or more of the wolf's allies
...
Bite * At Will
Attack: Melee 1 (one creature): +10 vs AC
Hit: 2d8+4 damage, or 3d8+4 against a prone target. The target falls prone if the wolf has combat advantage against it.
​

The end result is that like those dogs you praise, 4e dire wolves team up in groups of three or more, bring the enemy to the ground, and then tear them apart once they have fallen. This takes no additional rolls, no complex modifiers, and has the wolves behaving properly. And took four lines added*, including a header - or a tenth of the space. We could get the grab (as an encounter power) in in another three lines (again, including another line) if we really want to - and ongoing damage is a standard effect in 4e.

Simple, clean, effective, and takes around a tenth of the space of what you consider "masterful mechanical touches". And it doesn't stand out because literally all 4e monsters have this sort of deft touch to encourage them to behave the way they should.

From the look of it, the Hacklopaedia is effectively a deluxe version of the 2e Monstrous Manual - it does everything done by 2e, but moreso. And that Kenzer themselves choose to highlight the 'innovative dog pack mauling rules' has just completely unsold me on getting a system I'd been considering taking a look at.

* Three lines of Pack Harrier including the header, and a line's worth of text added to their normal Bite attack to get the prone and extra damage

 

[griffonwing]

And this brings me onto a pet rant.
...
...
...

There is more to a game than simple boiled down rules. A game shouldnt be "see how much we can boil this system down" textwise.

Sure, They could replace the section on Dog Mauling Rules with a very simple algorithm. Sure they could. But why?

You read Math books to learn Math Formulae. If you wish to read player manuals and monster books, solely for the hard math crunch, that's all good and well. As for me, I want to read stories. I want to delve into a book and read adventures about adventures.

This monster book does that. It starts off each monster with a first-hand account, then adds in the crunchy math for you. Yeah, they also include stories into the math as well. That's what KenzerCo are. Storytellers.

Naturally, you have your opinion, as I have mine. Neither of us are wrong.

 

[Treebore]

There is more to a game than simple boiled down rules. A game shouldnt be "see how much we can boil this system down" textwise.

Sure, They could replace the section on Dog Mauling Rules with a very simple algorithm. Sure they could. But why?

You read Math books to learn Math Formulae. If you wish to read player manuals and monster books, solely for the hard math crunch, that's all good and well. As for me, I want to read stories. I want to delve into a book and read adventures about adventures.

This monster book does that. It starts off each monster with a first-hand account, then adds in the crunchy math for you. Yeah, they also include stories into the math as well. That's what KenzerCo are. Storytellers.

Naturally, you have your opinion, as I have mine. Neither of us are wrong.

The HoB is a fine book. I'd love to see others adopt its presentation.