Expertise Dice


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Evenglare

Adventurer
So basically this is D&D the expertise dice edition? It seems like a knee jerk reaction. Everyone loved what it did to help the fighter, now it seems that it's everywhere...
 


mlund

First Post
I think they are on the right track at least as far as the need for a reliable, generic damage scaling mechanic for martial characters. The ability to convert into maneuvers should reflect the aptitude of the class. The expertise system should be unique to Martial characters only. Any class that uses magical powers in combat (primal, divine, arcane, psionic, or otherwise) should be shut out of the Expertise System entirely. Only multi-classing should create a character who has access to the Spell System and the Maneuvers System at the same time.

I shuddered when they mentioned giving the Paladin expertise dice. The last time they mentioned him his defining characteristic was Smite. If they give him Expertise dice just put him out to pasture along with his mount. The Paladin is defined by his Divine Power source. Keep him out of the Expertise pool. He's Faith-driven, not powered by Expertise.

As for a unique Fighter feature ...

I don't think no-cost Parry is the answer. I think the Fighter should be the only class with Parry on his list, though.

The unique feature that I think would help give the Fighter a unique talent AND help a bit with his deficits outside of Combat would be a Stunt maneuver. Just create something that rewards the Fighter for interacting with his environment through improvisation. Right now you usually just wind up regretting not swinging your sword for maximum damage.

I want to see fighters that leap from the saddle onto enemies with a thunderous crash. I want to see fighters that swing from chandeliers. I want to see Fighters that lift up a feast-hall table and toss it onto a trio of hobgoblins. I want to see Fighters wrestling a dire wolf's head under the waters of a fast-flowing river until the thing drowns to death.

Yes, there's no rule saying you can't do any of those things, but in general you look at your character sheet and figure out that the system is just going to kick you in the teeth for it, so why bother? You've got visible buttons to push and you're probably better off sticking to them.

Well the Fighter's unique feature should be a beautiful shiny button, a jolly candy-like button that says, "Have at it. Go nuts, kid," right there is raised lettering and bold type. Use the Expertise Dice as a guideline in terms of what the number crunching should work out to and let the player make a scene of it.

- Marty Lund
 
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WhatGravitas

Explorer
Hmm... while I find it sad that the fighter now longer has a good unique ability as it is, I think expertise dice *are* a good way to replace the traditional attack bonuses. Due to the way they scale (in number as in size), they naturally provide a way to scale maneuvers in breadth as in magnitude.

Furthermore, I think having dice instead of a flat bonus is a lot more exciting and fun - not to mention more physical. You have your expertise dice sitting right there on the table instead of having a +X somewhere on your sheet. As mentioned by the article, it also works well with the bounded accuracy... not to mention that it finally acknowledges that spell damage inflates very quickly and that weapon damage needs to keep up (and having flexible bonus dice seem to be a better and cleaner way than pre-packed 2[W], 5[W] damage etc. maneuvers as in 4E and definitely faster and less whiffy than the multiple attacks in 3E).

I hope that now they fully embrace the expertise dice as what they are to the current classes already - a part of the base progression of weapon users. Why? Because either they go back to making them fighter exclusive (that seems to be unlikely) or they acknowledge the place in the system and proceed to give every class an unique thing apart from the expertise dice and class-specific maneuvers.
 

I like expertise dice more than 5[w] because it allows you to use weapons with smaller damage dice without too much of a penalty and it makes halfling expertise with a short sword not overly powerful.

So, what we also learn from the article:

-> nearly every class needs expertise dice to represent martial knowledge
-> every class that has access to those dice needs a way to ad it to damage starting from a very low level
-> not every class needs the same progression of expertise dice as different classes have different expertise in using weapons
-> maybe skill mastery and expertise need to be seperated once again!
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
Without quoting the article wholesale, let's address the points made:

Traditionally, yes, being able to fight with a weapon meant that your chance to hit with weapons got better faster than other classes, but you could also get more attacks per round, damage bonuses and more feats to spend on weapon-related activities. Now, flattened math is the claim that attack bonuses won't work as a measure of martial power and yet we already see different attack bonuses progressing at different rates in the playtest classes.

I have no qualms with the new metric of increased level meaning increased HP and increased damage, with all the other numbers staying about level. We don't have all the numbers staying level, but let's ignore that for now. The bold claim is that expertise dice exist as a way to measure your martial combat skill, because your damage goes up. It might look like they exist just so that you can use maneuvers, but apparently that's not the reason they have opted for a clumsy dice progression over a simple smooth increased damage output. Did they honestly come up with the dice as a way to increase damage first, and then adapted them for use in maneuvers? Looking at the previous playtest iterations and the dice progression, I sincerely doubt it.

Then we have the confession that since they're using it for every class that might make melee attacks reasonably often, the Fighter needs something for himself. Parry? Woah there, hold your horses, aren't we making the class a little bit too exciting there? If that is there current idea to make the Fighter interesting, heck, if using expertise dice as a measure of martial prowess is something they're sticking with I am sorely disappointed.

Then there's the matter of complexity, and tracking between turns. I think the suggestion made is basically giving the Fighter expertise dice every time they make an attack (well, on your turn and on your reaction but I am making it even simpler). Why just the Fighter on this point? To me, the complexity comes with deciding how to spend multiple dice, not really the tracking, though that is a pain.

Finally we go back to the classic troll that feats can be used to buy combat abilities. What they have managed to do, for the Nth edition in a row, is set out to design something to make physical combat as dynamic and powerful as spellcasting, and have then thrown it into a system that every class uses. To-hit bonuses, thaco, feats and now expertise dice, all available to every class. Spellcasting, well, you can have a level zero spell, does that make you happy?

So to summarize:

  • Expertise dice represent your growing skill through a bonus to damage, therefore all maneuvers will be strictly comparative with dealing damage, if not just dealing damage in different ways.
  • Characters advance in weapon skill through a damage bonus, rather than an attack bonus, except that we're giving them increased attack bonuses too.
  • Maneuvers are limited to certain classes, unless we put a module in for anyone to use them, or include feats to let anyone use them, or just make maneuvers that we want all classes to have.
  • Some specific maneuvers are accessible by feats, so er, ignore the last point.
  • We can use expertise dice as the currency for some optional rules modules, such as powers and tactical combat, so again, ignore that thing about uniqueness.
 

Chris_Nightwing

First Post
Well the Fighter's unique feature should be a beautiful shiny button, a jolly candy-like button that says, "Have at it. Go nuts, kid," right there is raised lettering and bold type. Use the Expertise Dice as a guideline in terms of what the number crunching should work out to and let the player make a scene of it.

I understand the desire for less rigid options, but I'm not sure how you would implement this mechanically. So far we've seen that you can split your dice up into multiple maneuvers. Isn't the stunt system you describe just narrative creativity that let's you either move in a special way, attack in a special way or do more damage?

I like expertise dice more than 5[w] because it allows you to use weapons with smaller damage dice without too much of a penalty and it makes halfling expertise with a short sword not overly powerful.

So, what we also learn from the article:

-> nearly every class needs expertise dice to represent martial knowledge
-> every class that has access to those dice needs a way to ad it to damage starting from a very low level
-> not every class needs the same progression of expertise dice as different classes have different expertise in using weapons
-> maybe skill mastery and expertise need to be seperated once again!

The trouble with not reflecting the size of the damage dice you're using is that there becomes very little reason to wield anything other than a one-handed weapon. The d12 you might get for a two-handed sword rather than the d8 for a longsword doesn't seem worth the extra damage when you're spitting out 3d10 on top - you'd rather have a shield.

So far we've only seem the same progression of dice for every class that uses them. I'm not sure that will change, because the supposed reason for their existence is to bring the damage output of weapon users up to par for their level. I think that if they continue with this dice mechanic, they might want to separate the number of dice you get as you level up from the type of dice, which might be best at a fixed value. So you get a dice every 4 levels, let's say, and Fighters use d8 whilst Rogues use d6. Monks could be a fun special case, they always get 3 dice but the type of dice increases rather than the number.
 

ren1999

First Post
I did not mean for my XD complaints to imply that I reject it. I approve of multiple actions and a reaction. We are going to get some real swashbuckling out of this. My concern is if maneuvers should award a flat non-rolled bonus, a pool of dice, or just make it an additional action. XD as it is now -- is fun. Don't give it to spell and prayer casters.
 

erf_beto

First Post
I can understand where people are coming from when they complain that Expertise Dice for all (martial) classes is boring, but the way I see it, if you call them "slots" and rename maneuvers as "spells", then we already have a similar system for all (magical) classes. And that didn't ruin the game, did it?
True, 4e already did this standardization of classes (perhaps a bit much), but at least now they are separating martial from magic, which I'm fine with.
But, yes, the fighter needs something to call his own. If they can't come up with that, then I'd rather remove expertise from the other classes and let him eat the cake alone.
 

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