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D&D 5E Poll: What is a Level 1 PC?

What is a Level 1 PC?

  • Average Joe

    Votes: 21 6.1%
  • Average Joe... with potential

    Votes: 119 34.5%
  • Special but not quite a Hero

    Votes: 175 50.7%
  • Already a Hero and extraordinary

    Votes: 30 8.7%

pemerton

Legend
@pmerton speaks as much about encounter building tools and skill challenges as I do.
And shall do so again!

balanced, challenging encounters are not the goal of D&D.

<snip>

Trying to make D&D about encounters of any sort or trying to create some sort of balance based on them is an endeavor inherently doomed to fail.

The second point is that even if a particular DM wants to balance an encounter in a certain way for some reason, the rules for encounter design are useless. In a truly open-ended game, it's impossible to account for all the possibilities of how different characters will interact with each other or with the world.
I'm never sure if you're talking about your own preferences, or offering universal prescriptions. If the latter, than I think your prescriptions are shown to be mistaken by the existence of other GMs, and other campaigns, which are running perfectly well despite doing what you say cannot or should not be done!

In 4e, the function of the encounter design rules is to tell you how to take the game elements provided in the rulebooks - monsters, terrain, basic fantasy tropes, etc - and turn them into mechanically-defined situations that will produce compelling play experiences. In my experience they are remarkably successful at this. Part of this includes advice on adjudicating an open-ended game (this is what Page 42 is all about).

An "epic clash" between "approximate equals" is not what happens when you use D&D's encounter building guidelines.
It is if you use the 4e guidelines.

More fundamentally, the notion of encounters is inherently combat oriented
Not at all. Here are four RPGs I'm familiar with whose encounter-design guidelines encompass both combat and non-combat situations: D&D 4e; Burning Wheel; HeroWars/Quest; Maelstrom Storytelling. And I'm sure that there are plenty of others - especially more indie RPGs - with which I'm not familiar.

That's why the encounter building guidelines suck. That's why they're best ignored
Which ones? And by whom? I don't ignore the 4e guidelines. I use them every session I GM. For example, in my last session I had to sketch out a situation in which the PCs were negotiating with some duergar and devils - a skill challenge at the outset, but with combat potentially in the offing. I knew who the principal NPCs would be, but after adding up their XP value made decisions about what other, less NPCs to throw into the situation based on the encounter-builidng guidelines (for my 18th level PCs, I wanted 21 levels worth of XP - several of the PCs have no daily powers expended, all have an action point and full daily item uses available, and I want the combat, if it happens, to be more than a cakewalk).

I don't see what "balanced math" has to do with encounter building guidelines.
One feeds into the other. Mathematical reliabiity supports predicatability in encounter design. For example, I recently sketched out an encounter that will involve some demons. If this encounter occurs in my game, it is likely to involve 18th or 19th level PCs. There was a demon skirmisher I liked the look of, from the Demonomicon - the Jovoc. In the rulebook, the Jovoc is 10th level - not mathematically viable agaist 18th level PCs. So I added 8 levels to turn the Jovoc into an 18th level skirmisher, thereby giving it a sound place in my overall conception for the encounter.

I do this a lot - many of my 16th and 18th level duergar are heroic tier duergar with 8 or 12 levels stacked on! That 4e makes stacking on levels very easy is part of its appeal to me.

I see many proponents of 4e claim that the encounter building guidelines work very well... but I'm not sure exactly what that means.
I hope I've adequately explained what I mean. They support me in building mechanically-defined situations that produce compelling episodes of play. In the context of combat encounter design, the means they use to do that are a combination of monster XP, encounter XP budgets, terrain advice, roles advice (roles and terrain are closely connected), etc.

The mechanics are transparent, and the metacommentary on the sorts of experience the mechanics will produce is transparent too.

I've read criticism on RPG.net that, compared to the Pass/Fail cycle in HeroQuest revised, 4e's guidlines are hopelessly complex and convoluted. In a sense that's not unfair, but then 4e is trying to deliver a mechanical experience, in play, that is far far "heavier" and more intricate than HQ revised. Given that constraint, and therefore the inapplicability of a straightforward pass/fail cycle, I think 4e does a reasonable job.

I think it's weakest part is where it suggests that a failed skill challenge might typically be followed by a harder combat encounter, and vice versa. This is contrary to pass/fail logic, and in my view bad advice. Failing a skill challenge should, in my view, be followed by something easier but of narrower scope - whereas succeeding at a skill challenge should be followed by something harder, but of broader scope - thus maintaining the pass/fail dynamic that Laws talks about in HQ revised (and also in the cut and paste of those bits of HQ revised into 4e's DMG 2).

when I started running Savage Worlds, one of the first things I bemoaned was the lack of encounter design guidelines. Not knowing the system very well beforehand - after all I was just starting - meant that it was a lot of trial and error before I actually got enough experience with the system to have a decent idea what makes a good encounter.

<snip>

I actually have very little interest anymore in playing any system that doesn't have something similar.
I have never played or GMed Savage Worlds, but I agree with the general sentiment. It's interesting to look at a system like Burning Wheel, which has excellent resolution guidelines but, in its core rulebook, quite limited encounter buildig guidelines, and see the extra advice given in their much more recent "Adventure Burner". (In the bibliography to the Adventure Burner they mention 4e, and in their encounter-building advice they talk about how to design satisfactory epic fights using the BW mechanical resources - I have little doubt that 4e play led them to rethink how their game could handle "solo" encounters.)

This is a playstyle thing, and I think the fact that you like running your games like this is great... but I don't think this style of play is in any way "pretty central" to D&D.

EDIT: If anything I would say designing adventures for your players to engage with is what's pretty central to D&D... (not framing encounters/scenes/circumstances).
Well, I would characterise "adventure design" as the design of multiple scenes/encounters, plus the imposition of a "plot" (or, in the case of a dungeon, a flowchart) over the top of them. Generally a bit railroady for my taste, but much the same process.

If you look at c 1980 D&D design advice - in Moldvay Basic, in White Dwarf, in "What is Dungeons 7 Dragons" (published by Puffin around that time) - you will see that they treat adventure design as dungeon design, treat dungeon design as primarily room design, and treat each room as a "scene" or "encounter" (though without using the modern-day terminology).

I find that they do create challenges of about the level the DMG suggests, at least in my campaigns

<snip>

I'm aware that with other GMs and groups the threat level is left-shifted, eg they may find EL+2 is only moderately challenging.
If my memory is correct, you tend to run at (low?) Heroic - where (at least in my experience) encounters of a given level relative to the PCs are more challenging, just because the players don't have the same depth of resources to draw on. But also, I get the impression that your players may not be quite as tactically hard-headed as mine often are. (Alternatively, you may be a more tactcially hard-headed GM - I'm certainly not as strong in that department as my best players!)

After playing some more of 4e, I've decided that the combats are pretty boring. Every combat is the same: hit, hit, healing powers, hit, hit, monsters dead, PCs use healing surges. The monsters usually hit every round but don't do enough damage for anyone to care about. Monsters take forever to die and the group ends up grinding them down with at-wills once the battle is clearly won.

<snip>

Worse, the system discourages any sort of unbalanced encounter due to its existence and 4e monster design. In every fight, you're expected to win. If the DM picks a higher-level monster, you're not going to hit him reliably enough to win. If the DM picks a lower-level monster, he's not going to hit you reliably enough to pose a threat (not that he really posed a threat in the first place, but you know what I mean).
It's hard to comment on this sort of experience without more information to go on, but I would suggest that your GM needs to put more creatures into his/her encounters! And possible also do more to increase their mobility and exploit terrain.

Does your party have a composition that is particularly conducive to grind (eg too many leaders and controllers/defenders, not enough strikers)? If so, it may be as simple as seeing if the player of a leader wants to retire that PC and bring in a striker - increases both PC and monster damage output in one fell swoop!
 

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pemerton

Legend
I find it strange that in many of these discussions you tend to go to Monster Vault as the default Monster Manual. It's the 4th monster book created for 4e. I'm not sure I would expect people to be using it as their default monster book
If you go to the WotC website and look under "What to buy?", the only monster book you'll see is MV. It's currently the default monster book for 4e. As far as mechanics are concerned, it's also the single best monster book for 4e. So I don't think it's unreasonable to point to it as the game's standard.

The original 4e Monster Manual was a huge screw up by WoTC. As written, most of the monster stats just don't work.
There is not one single solo in the 4e Monster Manual 1 that you aren't better off throwing out and rebuilding from scratch, and with the Monster Manual 3 WotC fixed the underlying monster math. Monster Vault is basically a replacement Monster Manual 1 that actually works and I've said on another thread why I consider it the best monster manual ever produced for D&D (fluffwise and crunchwise) - and even the anti-essentials crowd IME uses it.
And here is where I enter my obligatory (if oft-ignored) plea in defence of the original MM, at least at Heroic tier. (I even used a Young Black Dragon - one of the most criticised of all MM solos - in an awesome encounter in a temple portico: the PCs plinked away with arrows from their defended position as it approached, and the wizard then channelled Arcane power through an idol of the Summer Queen that he had discovered - thus dispelling its darkness on his turn, with increasingly high Arcana DCs - while the other PCs gradually brought it down.)

There's no doubt that, mechanics wise, MV is better than MM - and mandatory if you are going out of Heroic tier. But I think flavour-wise the MM is better - its terser style allows more info to be included, and its Lore DCs make adjudicating knowledge checks easier. And its goblin, devil and demon entries are (in my view) pretty much unparalleled in the annals of D&D monster books.

I thought neonchameleon also stated that skill challenge rules were also changed...
The main difficulty for the skill challenge rules is the extreme scaling that characterises 4e. Any complex resolution system is going to be hard to get right in any environment in which the bonuses brought to bear against a given DC can be so variable. The DCs have, by my count, taken 4 goes to get right (the original values, then the deletion of the "add 5 for skills" footnote at the bottom of the DMG table, then the DMG2 errata to the DMG table, then the Essentials errata to the DMG table). And Essentials, as well as errata-ing the DCs, also adopts a new mechanical device - the "Advantage" - to further smooth the bumps that scaling bonuses cause.

Advantages also have the effect of smoothing out the bumps that the move from "N before half-N" to "N before 3" - a change that itself was necessitated by scaling - introduce into the system.

If D&Dnext really implements Flat Maths, that will make a skill challenge mechanic much easier to design.

And the advice to allow any skill whatsoever, no matter the circumstances.
In my capacity as (limited) defender of the merits of core 4e, I feel olbiged to post that that's not really a fair paraphrase of the following passage (DMG, p 75:

Thinking players are engaged players. In skill challenges, players will come up with uses for skills that you didn’t expect to play a role. Try not to say no. . .

However, it’s particularly important to make sure these checks are grounded in actions that make sense in the adventure and the situation. If a player asks, “Can I use Diplomacy?” you should ask what exactly the character might be doing to help the party survive in the uninhabited sandy wastes by using that skill. Don’t say no too often, but don’t say yes if it doesn’t make sense in the context of the challenge.​

I actually think that that is pretty good advice, particularly when you're dealing with a play environment that is very used to having the "face", the "trap guy", the "nature guy" etc for dealing with out-of-combat challenges.
 

S'mon

Legend
A
If my memory is correct, you tend to run at (low?) Heroic - where (at least in my experience) encounters of a given level relative to the PCs are more challenging, just because the players don't have the same depth of resources to draw on. But also, I get the impression that your players may not be quite as tactically hard-headed as mine often are. (Alternatively, you may be a more tactcially hard-headed GM - I'm certainly not as strong in that department as my best players!)

It's the latter - I'm currently running 4e for 9th level PCs. I tend to be a pretty go-for-the-throat killer GM and after some changes in group membership, none of the current players are particularly tactical. When I killed 3/5 of them recently it was 5 9th level PCs vs an 11th level solo black dragon backed up by a bloodied 10th level elite Oni they had failed to kill earlier. For two players it was only their second session. The encounter triggered early; the advice in the Delve was that the dragon waited for the PCs to climb out of a sewer pipe into its chamber before revealing itself, but the lead PC into the chamber made the DC 32 Perception check to spot it right off. He shot at it and caused it to attack him while the others were still in the pipe, which turned out disastrous as the others were clustered in the pipe with water flowing down into the chamber pool, trying to climb down into the main chamber they got breathed on, could not maneuver in the three foot deep water, getting blasted by both Oni & Dragon. When the party Cleric started healing downed PCs to pop up again, the dragon started CDGing the fallen, which swiftly finished things off. The last PC standing grabbed a fallen comrade and managed to escape, with me rolling two consecutive 1s on the dragon's attacks as it chased her.

Even so they had killed the Oni and taken the dragon to around 1/4 of its starting hp before losing.
 

pemerton

Legend
I tend to be a pretty go-for-the-throat killer GM and after some changes in group membership, none of the current players are particularly tactical.
A dangerous combination for the PCs!

As you describe it, that encounter sounds like it would have been quite interesting in the resolution, even if the PCs were being hosed. Was it?
 

S'mon

Legend
In my capacity as (limited) defender of the merits of core 4e, I feel olbiged to post that that's not really a fair paraphrase of the following passage (DMG, p 75:

I find the MM works fine if I edit the stats per MM3 standard - brute & soldier attacks to L+5, damage base to L+8. Some of the MV monsters do too much damage (Owlbears, Savage Orcs) or are too complicated, and there are some classic monsters that only appear in the MM.
 

S'mon

Legend
A dangerous combination for the PCs!

As you describe it, that encounter sounds like it would have been quite interesting in the resolution, even if the PCs were being hosed. Was it?

Yes, it was a good fight. :D It really brought home the importance of terrain - I think the majority of my TPKs/near TPKs have been due to terrain obstacles restricting PC freedom of action. Another one I recall was a 10' cliff leading into a large cavern full of orcs. The orcs could defeat the PCs in detail as they climbed into the cavern.
 

pemerton

Legend
I think the majority of my TPKs/near TPKs have been due to terrain obstacles restricting PC freedom of action.
The only "TPK" (in fact many of the PCs were knocked unconscious and taken prisoner) in my 4e campaign involved action denial, but from trickery rather than terrain. In an earlier encounter the PCs had been attacked by a villager driven mad by the horrors he'd experienced in goblin raids, and when one of the PCs killed him it caused a disagreement among the PCs (as played by the players) over how to deal with distraught villagers. Consequently, when a few game-days later they saw some villagers huddled around a fire in the woods, they approached them and sat with them in a friendly fashion. At which point (i) I revealed that the villagers were pale reavers in disguise, and (ii) a spectre dazing everyone in its aura (an alternative ability from Open Grave) flew in to join the party. The action denial was hugely punishing - much more than I had anticipated, because the PCs were all caught within it (having been sitting in a circle around the fire).
 


pemerton

Legend
And how does 4e monster design relate to the relative power level of 1st level PCs?
It emphasises the game mechanical, rather than representational, purpose of PC stats and of the action resolution system.

It's easy to build a 4e encounter, using classic AD&D 1st-level monsters (kobolds, goblins, orcs etc), that will threaten 4e PCs. But the PCs won't die in one round - even if the combat is a TPK, and a guaranteed one, it will probably take a few rounds to resolve (a bit like the TPK [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] described above0).

This doesn't mean that, in the fiction, a 4e PC is any tougher than an AD&D one. It just means that the action resolution mechanics spell out the defeat with greater complexity: what, in AD&D, might be resolved in a single set of rolls occurring over a one minute round gets broken down into a more detailed series of 6 second rounds, in which we see the PCs glory and failure unfold in lavish detail.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It emphasises the game mechanical, rather than representational, purpose of PC stats and of the action resolution system.

It's easy to build a 4e encounter, using classic AD&D 1st-level monsters (kobolds, goblins, orcs etc), that will threaten 4e PCs. But the PCs won't die in one round - even if the combat is a TPK, and a guaranteed one, it will probably take a few rounds to resolve (a bit like the TPK [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION] described above0).

This doesn't mean that, in the fiction, a 4e PC is any tougher than an AD&D one. It just means that the action resolution mechanics spell out the defeat with greater complexity: what, in AD&D, might be resolved in a single set of rolls occurring over a one minute round gets broken down into a more detailed series of 6 second rounds, in which we see the PCs glory and failure unfold in lavish detail.
So what you're saying is that in 4e it takes longer to kill 'em, and they get to feel *all* the pain en route.

Hmm...maybe 4e does have something going for it after all. :)

Lanefan
 

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