And shall do so again!@pmerton speaks as much about encounter building tools and skill challenges as I do.
I'm never sure if you're talking about your own preferences, or offering universal prescriptions. If the latter, than I think your prescriptions are shown to be mistaken by the existence of other GMs, and other campaigns, which are running perfectly well despite doing what you say cannot or should not be done!balanced, challenging encounters are not the goal of D&D.
<snip>
Trying to make D&D about encounters of any sort or trying to create some sort of balance based on them is an endeavor inherently doomed to fail.
The second point is that even if a particular DM wants to balance an encounter in a certain way for some reason, the rules for encounter design are useless. In a truly open-ended game, it's impossible to account for all the possibilities of how different characters will interact with each other or with the world.
In 4e, the function of the encounter design rules is to tell you how to take the game elements provided in the rulebooks - monsters, terrain, basic fantasy tropes, etc - and turn them into mechanically-defined situations that will produce compelling play experiences. In my experience they are remarkably successful at this. Part of this includes advice on adjudicating an open-ended game (this is what Page 42 is all about).
It is if you use the 4e guidelines.An "epic clash" between "approximate equals" is not what happens when you use D&D's encounter building guidelines.
Not at all. Here are four RPGs I'm familiar with whose encounter-design guidelines encompass both combat and non-combat situations: D&D 4e; Burning Wheel; HeroWars/Quest; Maelstrom Storytelling. And I'm sure that there are plenty of others - especially more indie RPGs - with which I'm not familiar.More fundamentally, the notion of encounters is inherently combat oriented
Which ones? And by whom? I don't ignore the 4e guidelines. I use them every session I GM. For example, in my last session I had to sketch out a situation in which the PCs were negotiating with some duergar and devils - a skill challenge at the outset, but with combat potentially in the offing. I knew who the principal NPCs would be, but after adding up their XP value made decisions about what other, less NPCs to throw into the situation based on the encounter-builidng guidelines (for my 18th level PCs, I wanted 21 levels worth of XP - several of the PCs have no daily powers expended, all have an action point and full daily item uses available, and I want the combat, if it happens, to be more than a cakewalk).That's why the encounter building guidelines suck. That's why they're best ignored
One feeds into the other. Mathematical reliabiity supports predicatability in encounter design. For example, I recently sketched out an encounter that will involve some demons. If this encounter occurs in my game, it is likely to involve 18th or 19th level PCs. There was a demon skirmisher I liked the look of, from the Demonomicon - the Jovoc. In the rulebook, the Jovoc is 10th level - not mathematically viable agaist 18th level PCs. So I added 8 levels to turn the Jovoc into an 18th level skirmisher, thereby giving it a sound place in my overall conception for the encounter.I don't see what "balanced math" has to do with encounter building guidelines.
I do this a lot - many of my 16th and 18th level duergar are heroic tier duergar with 8 or 12 levels stacked on! That 4e makes stacking on levels very easy is part of its appeal to me.
I hope I've adequately explained what I mean. They support me in building mechanically-defined situations that produce compelling episodes of play. In the context of combat encounter design, the means they use to do that are a combination of monster XP, encounter XP budgets, terrain advice, roles advice (roles and terrain are closely connected), etc.I see many proponents of 4e claim that the encounter building guidelines work very well... but I'm not sure exactly what that means.
The mechanics are transparent, and the metacommentary on the sorts of experience the mechanics will produce is transparent too.
I've read criticism on RPG.net that, compared to the Pass/Fail cycle in HeroQuest revised, 4e's guidlines are hopelessly complex and convoluted. In a sense that's not unfair, but then 4e is trying to deliver a mechanical experience, in play, that is far far "heavier" and more intricate than HQ revised. Given that constraint, and therefore the inapplicability of a straightforward pass/fail cycle, I think 4e does a reasonable job.
I think it's weakest part is where it suggests that a failed skill challenge might typically be followed by a harder combat encounter, and vice versa. This is contrary to pass/fail logic, and in my view bad advice. Failing a skill challenge should, in my view, be followed by something easier but of narrower scope - whereas succeeding at a skill challenge should be followed by something harder, but of broader scope - thus maintaining the pass/fail dynamic that Laws talks about in HQ revised (and also in the cut and paste of those bits of HQ revised into 4e's DMG 2).
I have never played or GMed Savage Worlds, but I agree with the general sentiment. It's interesting to look at a system like Burning Wheel, which has excellent resolution guidelines but, in its core rulebook, quite limited encounter buildig guidelines, and see the extra advice given in their much more recent "Adventure Burner". (In the bibliography to the Adventure Burner they mention 4e, and in their encounter-building advice they talk about how to design satisfactory epic fights using the BW mechanical resources - I have little doubt that 4e play led them to rethink how their game could handle "solo" encounters.)when I started running Savage Worlds, one of the first things I bemoaned was the lack of encounter design guidelines. Not knowing the system very well beforehand - after all I was just starting - meant that it was a lot of trial and error before I actually got enough experience with the system to have a decent idea what makes a good encounter.
<snip>
I actually have very little interest anymore in playing any system that doesn't have something similar.
Well, I would characterise "adventure design" as the design of multiple scenes/encounters, plus the imposition of a "plot" (or, in the case of a dungeon, a flowchart) over the top of them. Generally a bit railroady for my taste, but much the same process.This is a playstyle thing, and I think the fact that you like running your games like this is great... but I don't think this style of play is in any way "pretty central" to D&D.
EDIT: If anything I would say designing adventures for your players to engage with is what's pretty central to D&D... (not framing encounters/scenes/circumstances).
If you look at c 1980 D&D design advice - in Moldvay Basic, in White Dwarf, in "What is Dungeons 7 Dragons" (published by Puffin around that time) - you will see that they treat adventure design as dungeon design, treat dungeon design as primarily room design, and treat each room as a "scene" or "encounter" (though without using the modern-day terminology).
If my memory is correct, you tend to run at (low?) Heroic - where (at least in my experience) encounters of a given level relative to the PCs are more challenging, just because the players don't have the same depth of resources to draw on. But also, I get the impression that your players may not be quite as tactically hard-headed as mine often are. (Alternatively, you may be a more tactcially hard-headed GM - I'm certainly not as strong in that department as my best players!)I find that they do create challenges of about the level the DMG suggests, at least in my campaigns
<snip>
I'm aware that with other GMs and groups the threat level is left-shifted, eg they may find EL+2 is only moderately challenging.
It's hard to comment on this sort of experience without more information to go on, but I would suggest that your GM needs to put more creatures into his/her encounters! And possible also do more to increase their mobility and exploit terrain.After playing some more of 4e, I've decided that the combats are pretty boring. Every combat is the same: hit, hit, healing powers, hit, hit, monsters dead, PCs use healing surges. The monsters usually hit every round but don't do enough damage for anyone to care about. Monsters take forever to die and the group ends up grinding them down with at-wills once the battle is clearly won.
<snip>
Worse, the system discourages any sort of unbalanced encounter due to its existence and 4e monster design. In every fight, you're expected to win. If the DM picks a higher-level monster, you're not going to hit him reliably enough to win. If the DM picks a lower-level monster, he's not going to hit you reliably enough to pose a threat (not that he really posed a threat in the first place, but you know what I mean).
Does your party have a composition that is particularly conducive to grind (eg too many leaders and controllers/defenders, not enough strikers)? If so, it may be as simple as seeing if the player of a leader wants to retire that PC and bring in a striker - increases both PC and monster damage output in one fell swoop!