D&D 3E/3.5 Going back to 3.5 - advice?

[Herobizkit]

Going back to DMing 3.x after 4e is akin to switching up your jaunty prop plane to a bloated jumbo jet - the dashboard is way larger with many more dials and switches and you need some kind of math degree to fly it.

3.x is a player's wonderland but a DM's nightmare. I find that if I DM by 'dumbing down' the monsters to AC-HP-Damage, the monsters lose their individuality and I start to get frustrated with the PC's fighting essentially the same monsters over and over.

Now, to speed up 4e combat, Use more minions. Still switching to 3.x? USE MORE MINIONS. Don't be ashamed to give your monsters 1 HP. Survivability is slim at those early levels, and an Orc with a d12 Greataxe can ace almost every character in one hit on a lucky STANDARD damage roll. And most importantly, don't tell the PCs you're using minions. Let them sweat it out.

Now, what 3.x DOES do better than 4e (IMO) is Skills. I find that I use Skill checks far more often in 3.x adventures than 4e ones, mostly because virtually all 4e pre-gen adventures have at least one complex skill check that requires the whole party to succeed. Complex skill checks are great in concept but skill use in general tends to fall to the wayside when you have K3wl p0w3Rz.

If you plan on running pre-gens, keep in mind that the base assumption of a 3.x game is a 4-player party with the four roles covered (Fighter, Mage, Thief, Cleric). Adjustments will have to be made for larger parties but espeically with smaller parties. If you have 3 or less players and you're not using PF, I strongly suggest checking out the Gestalt rules as seen in the Unearthed Arcana.

Any specific questions, by all means, post them here. This place is home to many D&D minds of all sorts of experiences.

 

[Ahnehnois]

3.x is a player's wonderland but a DM's nightmare.

Even if that were true, it would seem to suggest that everyone should be using it, since there are a lot more players than DMs.

I find that if I DM by 'dumbing down' the monsters to AC-HP-Damage, the monsters lose their individuality and I start to get frustrated with the PC's fighting essentially the same monsters over and over.

So don't.

It's not hard to run a session solely from a couple of well-done stat blocks.

 

[Kinak]

One of the things I do during prep that helps a lot is to "4e-ify" monster stat blocks.

So this becomes:

Yeth Hounds
Perception +9 darkvision scent, Stealth +9, Init +6
AC 15, HP 30, DR 5/silver
Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +6, CMD 19
40', fly 60'
Bite +7 2d6+4 trip (+7) sinister bite (DC 14 or shaken)
Bay DC 12 Will or panicked for 2d4 rounds (immune 24 hours)

Shaken: -2 to attacks, damage, saves, and checks

Depending on the encounter and the monster, I may need to make some judgement calls, adding or subtracting sections. But I end up with all the relevant stats in a small block instead of scattered through a page.

And, as an added bonus, it makes me actually look over the monster and learn its abilities.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Storminator]

[falsetto] don't do it![/falsetto]

 

[Lwaxy]

Why don't you just make them up as you go? I do that 80% of the time, based on standard NPC patterns, and it works fine.

I have a good sorted archive anyway, I'm only a printer run away from having most things I need at the ready anytime.

 

[nijineko]

in response to the OP...

prep time need not take more than 30-60 minutes, and that is for a party of six 18th level character in 3.x.

i build an outline, a few branches of possibilities (still just an outline), and use the six-sentence rule for npcs. only important/significant stats are listed, all else is assumed to be average.

during play, i take notes - some of the best ideas are handed to you by players during the game with random comments or questions. that takes care of over half my next games' prep right there.

with mooks, don't bother with anything not really significant.

sometimes i'll flex the hp of the encounters depending on how the combat is going. or reinforcements wander in. or something.

use descriptives, it'll encourage the players to do likewise.

boil stuff down to stat blocks, and reuse them. i once ran a battle of six 16th level pcs (different from above) versus 120 enemies with only 5 stat blocks, one for each kind of enemy in the battalion. worked great. (they trashed at first, but then got pinned down in a cross fire. they wound up having to bluff and negotiate their way out of the rest of the fight, and then clean up the undead mooks that were no longer under control...) they still talk about that battle.

 

[delericho]

If the OP's sole issue with 4e is the length of combat, then my advice echoes that of several other posters: you should at least attempt using the "half hit-points/double damage" house rule. Additionally, you should see if you can build encounters to run more quickly - greater use of minions, less use of brutes (IIRC), and so on. Basically, there are a number of tricks you can try.

If you do switch back to 3e, you'll probably find that the time savings are actually not as great as you had thought - especially once 3e gets into the mid-levels (6-12), there are so many buffs, debuffs and (especially) dispels flying around that the game can seriously slow down.

If, despite this, you still decide to switch back, my strong recommendation would be to stick with the version of the rules that you know best. Although Pathfinder is indeed an improvement over 3.5e (IMO), it comes at the cost of negating hard-won system mastery, and it is that mastery that allows me to run the game at a decent speed (YMMV, of course). I would also strongly recommend keeping a tight lid on the number of supplements in use in the game - it's very obvious that nothing beyond the core received much if any playtesting, and frankly there's plenty even in Core-rules-only to power your games for decades without difficulty.

All IMO only, of course, and YMMV.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Even if that were true, it would seem to suggest that everyone should be using it, since there are a lot more players than DMs.

But who is running for all t hose players? They ain't running themselves, and even if they are, then they would be DMs.

 

[Ragmon]

For your 4th edition problem I would say, like many before me, shorten the fights, I myself would even go as far as to say, remove them, only have fights when its really needed.

And for the 3.5 thing, the only prep you need is a laptop with all the books (we don't buy books, there expensive and the pay is too low here).
That if nothing else write down a bunch of names so you need to make em up on the spot. Otherwise improvise EVERYTHING on the spot, but make sure you remember or write down everything you improvised just to stay consistent.

 

[Rechan]

If you do switch back to 3e, you'll probably find that the time savings are actually not as great as you had thought - especially once 3e gets into the mid-levels (6-12), there are so many buffs, debuffs and (especially) dispels flying around that the game can seriously slow down.

Also in my experience, 3e fights take just about as long; in 3e and 4e, a fight may take an hour, but it's only 3 rounds in 3e where it's like 6 or 7 in 4e. Point being each round is just longer in 3e.

And regardless of edition, the higher the level, the more it will slow down.

To cut down on time with 4e fights:
1) Sure, go with the half HP/double damage.

2) DO NOT USE SOLDIERS. They have high defenses and low damage. If you want high damage, low HP, stick to artillery and lurkers as your bread and butter, then skirmishers and controllers, and a brute to mix it up.

3) Consider Two-Hit Minions. Give them a regular damage expression, but in one hit they're bloodied, and in another they go down.

4) Combat speed also depends on players. Not being on the ball when their turn comes up, or having lots of Immediate Reaction/Interrupt powers.

5) Avoid monster attack powers that will slow a fight down by denying player actions: dazed, immobilized, STUNNED.

5) Fewer fights that are more impressive/important. Embrace the long combat, making big set pieces, but have them spread out.