D&D 3E/3.5 Going back to 3.5 - advice?

[Neonchameleon]

3.x is a player's wonderland but a DM's nightmare. I find that if I DM by 'dumbing down' the monsters to AC-HP-Damage, the monsters lose their individuality and I start to get frustrated with the PC's fighting essentially the same monsters over and over.

As a player I disagree - for a non-caster, 4e is to me far more of a wonderland than 3.X ever was - and for a caster I'm too worried about breaking stuff in 3.x. Especially as I'm (a) better able to optimise without thinking than most people are through research and (b) like trickster-mages as a concept - which are inherently broken in 3.X.

Even if that were true, it would seem to suggest that everyone should be using it, since there are a lot more players than DMs.

New players are easier to recruit than new DMs especially for 3.X. My current gaming group has four DMs out of eight people - none of whom will run 3.X. But all the players will play 4e and the verdict is split as to which we prefer as players (that said we're moving to a more narrative system - MHRP - soon).

For your 4th edition problem I would say, like many before me, shorten the fights, I myself would even go as far as to say, remove them, only have fights when its really needed.

Yup! I'm also looking at a quick combat system where damage is done directly to healing surges.

 

[delericho]

2) DO NOT USE SOLDIERS. They have high defenses and low damage. If you want high damage, low HP, stick to artillery and lurkers as your bread and butter, then skirmishers and controllers, and a brute to mix it up.

Aha! Yes, that was the monster type I was thinking should be avoided.

5) Fewer fights that are more impressive/important. Embrace the long combat, making big set pieces, but have them spread out.

One thing that might be worth considering is turning some of those 'lesser' fights into Skill Challenges. In 3e, a lot of the "speed-bump" combats exist mostly to drain the party of a few hit points, spells, potions, etc. This can be turned reasonably well into a skill challenge - if the party fail the challenge they each lose a Healing Surge (or two).

 

[Ahnehnois]

New players are easier to recruit than new DMs especially for 3.X.

Really? D&D is a small niche hobby. I haven't had much success in recruitment in a long time (though I'm happy with my group and haven't tried, to be fair).

On the other hand, I've found over the years that a lot of players want to DM, to the point where it can become competitive to decide who gets to, and most of them that try are pretty good at it.

I think finding bodies is much harder than finding DMs out of those people.

 

[Blackbrrd]

In my group the most successful DnD campaigns have all been the ones with a limited ruleset. It creates less OP and simpler characters (mechanically) and focuses character creation on the role-playing aspect of it. One campaign had just the PHB, while another had PHB+Dragonlance.

Anyway, I do wonder how you cut prep time by 75% with 4e vs 3e?

 

[Blackbrrd]

Really? D&D is a small niche hobby. I haven't had much success in recruitment in a long time (though I'm happy with my group and haven't tried, to be fair).

On the other hand, I've found over the years that a lot of players want to DM, to the point where it can become competitive to decide who gets to, and most of them that try are pretty good at it.

I think finding bodies is much harder than finding DMs out of those people.

I have played in more or less the same group for 14 years and really, it's the good DM that's hard to find. Finding 4-8 players for a game every week wouldn't be a problem. And I am 34.

 

[qstor]

If you go down the 3E path, I very highly recommend limiting which books are used. A huge number of the problems with 3E don't exist if you only use PHB1.

I agree with this 100%. Stick to the Core books and the Complete Divine, Complete Arcane and Complete Divine. Other stuff shows the power creep and can be unbalancing. Like the Book of Nine Swords. And no 3rd party products.

But I disgree about Pathfinder. I was familiar with the 3x ruleset enough that there wasn't a steep learning curve. There's plenty of adventures and other aids that can help with prep. Maybe run a published adventure in an established world like the Age of Worms in Greyhawk.

Mike

 

[Blue]

I play 4e and 3.5 regularly. Last week was the climax session of a seven year 3.5 campaign session I ran. I like and play both systems, so don't take any of this as edition bashing.

Both 4e and 3.5 take longer to run combat at higher levels. In 3.5 it's actually less rounds, but once you get near epic you could spend an hour a round with everything, even if the whole combat is only going to take 3 rounds. Both editions run fast at first through like 6-7, and still decent up through 10-12, slowing down more after that.

If time it takes to run combat is an issue, I would recommend looking at another system entirely, since the level of tactical detail is a hallmark of the mechanics of those two systems. If you want to stay d20 OGL, 13th Age takes a lot of good ideas from 3.5 (it is d20 rules) and 4e, then builds on it to be fast and flavorful. Next also seems to be much quicker in that department if you're willing to start a campaign with a playtest document. If you and your group are willing to travel a little further abroad from D&D there are all sorts of systems out there.

I play and run D&D, I enjoy it greatly, but those edition's heavy tactical / inclusive rules around combat is a strength if that's what you're looking, but they are not quick.

 

[MerricB]

So our group has been playing 4e for the last few years, and we've finally decided we can't continue with it. The chief problem is that encounters take too long. With our group's logistics, our sessions are short, so if we have a combat then the story doesn't move along at all. People also have complained about the "same-ness" of every battle.

All the players liked 3.5. However, I as the DM dread going back - 4e literally cut my prep time by 3/4. I'm sure a lot has happened in terms of 3.5 clones and mods since we were last playing it (I'm aware of Pathfinder but have never played it) - does anyone have advice for how we might proceed?

The biggest trouble 3.5E and Pathfinder have is that the mathematics is wildly divergent for different classes. It's incredibly easy to make characters so that some characters can only be hit on a 20, while others need a 2. You don't even need to try to do it - you'll fall into it. Certainly, it's the biggest problem you'll face when moving from 4E to 3.5E: suddenly, the underlying maths is wildly erratic.

It's one of the main reasons my primary campaign is currently AD&D: the numbers are a lot closer together.

My main advice is to try 3.5E for a minicampaign of 3-4 sessions so that everyone can make sure this is the system you want to play.

Cheers!

 

[timASW]

The real trick to prepping 3e easily is not to waste your effort that came before.

I've used the same spread sheet of critters from "crown of the kobald king" in a half dozen adventures with no modifications at all. And only slight modifications to turn them into any other sort of quick humanoid enemy.

Prep once, use over and over is the mantra you need.

 

[Herobizkit]

Using the same monsters over and over is exactly what frustrates me as a DM.